(2023-09-26, 12:05 PM)Max_B Wrote: [ -> ]The behavioral response observed was apparently due to the mice's temporary exposure to a hypo magnetic field.
At the same time a rat skull is significantly thinner than a human skull. Also the article you are referring is using time frame of several hours of change in electomagnectic energy exposure to detect an effect compared to the 'instant' effect when people have a NDE during cardiac arrest.
Look, there's no link here to your NDE theory. Why not just propose some magic energy carrier rather than electomagnatic energy?
(2023-09-26, 12:12 PM)sbu Wrote: [ -> ]At the same time a rat skull is significantly thinner than a human skull. Also the article you are referring is using time frame of several hours of change in electomagnectic energy exposure to detect an effect compared to the 'instant' effect when people have a NDE during cardiac arrest.
Look, there's no link here to your NDE theory. Why not just propose some magic energy carrier rather than electomagnatic energy?
The magnetic component of the EM field is relatively unaffected by passing through the thickness of the scull, unlike the electric component.
We don't have a mechanism yet for these magneto-biological effects, but researchers are looking at things like the magnetic moment, angular momentum, and a wide range of other possible candidate theories.
(2023-09-26, 12:52 PM)Max_B Wrote: [ -> ]The magnetic component of the EM field is relatively unaffected by passing through the thickness of the scull, unlike the electric component.
We don't have a mechanism yet for these magneto-biological effects, but researchers are looking at things like the magnetic moment, angular momentum, and a wide range of other possible candidate theories.
The magnetic fields produced by neuronal activity in the brain are on the order of a few femtoteslas (fT) to a few hundred femtoteslas. For context, 1 femtotesla is 10E-15. To put this in perspective, the magnetic field of the Earth is much stronger, roughly around 25 to 65 microteslas (10E-6).
If magnetism affected consciousness to the degree you are proposing it would be obvious for example for astronauts in LEO.
(2023-09-26, 01:10 PM)sbu Wrote: [ -> ]The magnetic fields produced by neuronal activity in the brain are on the order of a few femtoteslas (fT) to a few hundred femtoteslas. For context, 1 femtotesla is 10E-15. To put this in perspective, the magnetic field of the Earth is much stronger, roughly around 25 to 65 microteslas (10E-6).
If magnetism affected consciousness to the degree you are proposing it would be obvious for example for astronauts in LEO.
Behavioural effects in organisms at hyper-weak magnetic field strengths, which can be thousands of times weaker than the local geomagnetic field, are well documented in the field of Magnetoreception.
And, I've already referenced a paper showing robust behavioral effects in mice temporarily exposed to a hypo magnetic field.
(2023-09-26, 11:56 AM)Max_B Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, that's the abstract from the paper I mentioned above...
https://doi.org/10.1002/bem.20056
(2023-09-26, 12:12 PM)sbu Wrote: [ -> ] Also the article you are referring is using time frame of several hours of change in electomagnectic energy exposure to detect an effect compared to the 'instant' effect when people have a NDE during cardiac arrest.
The experiment was "1 h per day for 10 consecutive days" with the maximum analgesic effect being at 4-6 days. There might be a connection with NDEs but I'm not personally convinced.
(2023-09-26, 05:44 PM)Max_B Wrote: [ -> ]Behavioural effects in organisms at hyper-weak magnetic field strengths, which can be thousands of times weaker than the local geomagnetic field, are well documented in the field of Magnetoreception.
And, I've already referenced a paper showing robust behavioral effects in mice temporarily exposed to a hypo magnetic field.
Nearly every electrical apparatus emits weak magnetic fields. We are exposed to a vast array of different electromagnetic sources every day, many of which are very weak, without any proven effect on human consciousness. It's worth noting that humans are not rats. Moreover, NDEs occur 'instantly,' not after an hour per day for ten consecutive days.
I must say that I don't give much scientific credence to your NDE theory, especially the broad extrapolations you're drawing from a rat study. However, I'm pleased for you if you are personally satisfied with your interpretation of the NDE 'enigma'.
(2023-09-26, 05:59 PM)sbu Wrote: [ -> ]I must say that I don't give much scientific credence to your NDE theory, especially the broad extrapolations you're drawing from a rat study. However, I'm pleased for you if you are personally satisfied with your interpretation of the NDE 'enigma'.
This, of course, is to Max_B. It looks like you are saying it to me in your post.
(2023-09-26, 05:59 PM)sbu Wrote: [ -> ]Nearly every electrical apparatus emits weak magnetic fields. We are exposed to a vast array of different electromagnetic sources every day, many of which are very weak, without any proven effect on human consciousness. It's worth noting that humans are not rats. Moreover, NDEs occur 'instantly,' not after an hour per day for ten consecutive days.
The researchers had observed the same effect in mice after a single exposure to a hypo magnetic shielded environment in a previous study. This was a follow-up study. Obviously rats can't tell us about their experiences, so we rely on observing their behaviour. In humans, behavioral changes from NDE's have been found in experients for months and and years following their experience.
There is actually plenty of published literature on effects of magnetic fields in humans, but it tends not to be replicated, and/or has reproducibility issues which plague the field. More recent experiments under hypo magnetic conditions, which attempt to control for the magnetic field appear to be more successful in their reproducibility within the field of magneto-biology more generally, but it's difficult to undertake such research with humans for practical and I guess ethical reasons.
Another reason I'd guess research is lacking, is obtaining funding for such research. Because of the financial importance of electromagnetic field generating technology to society, going fishing for such effects in humans is probably not a high priority. But research is there, an example at picoTesla strengths...
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en...netic&btnG=
In a very recent (Sept. 29) interview (at
https://www.vice.com/en/article/pkamgm/p...dy-reports ), Dr. Parnia has made some extended comments about the results of AWARE II that to my knowledge haven't been publicized to date.
I think that these indicate his true position re. the reality and significance and near-universality of reported near-death experiences, despite the near absence of veridical evidence in this study. Parnia has had to be very cautious in his wording, to claim no more than what the study actually experimentally revealed.
Of course, materialist skeptics fasten on veridical evidence and ignore the extreme unlikelihood (from the materialistic neurophysiological standpoint) of the reported transcendental realer-than-real states of consciousness occurring during comatose brain-impaired processes of CPR. During the study, the team studied hundreds of comatose patients who were undergoing CPR at hospitals in the United Kingdom and the United States. Materialists have a hard time trying to explain the why and the how of such levels of particularly heightened, purpose-filled consciousness especially when occurring under such circumstances.
Quote:Patients who survive cardiac arrest “have consistently reported that even though from the perspective of doctors like myself—who try to revive them when they appear to be in a coma and totally unresponsive, teetering between life and death—from their own inner perspective, they find that they're fully conscious,” Parnia said in a call with Motherboard. “They have an inner experience and their consciousness is not only there but it's heightened to a level that they've never experienced before. Their thoughts become sharper than usual, and clearer than usual.”
“Importantly, this experience also involves a purposeful, meaningful reevaluation of their entire life,” he continued. “Not just random moments, but the entirety of their life. It's been a mystery, and it's not one or two anecdotes. There have been a number of studies that have suggested maybe up to 10 percent of the adult population is living with one of these experiences, which if you do the math probably works out to 400 or 500 million people in the world.”
“Most doctors are taught and believe that the brain dies after about five or 10 minutes of oxygen deprivation,” Parnia said. “One of the key points that comes out of this study is that that is actually not true. Although the brain flatlines after the heart stops, and that happens within seconds, it doesn't mean that it's permanently damaged and [has] died. It's just hibernating. What we were able to show is that actually, the brain can respond and restore function again, even after an hour later, which opens up a whole window of opportunity for doctors to start new treatments.”
Indeed, the study reports that “near-normal/physiological EEG activity (delta, theta, alpha, beta rhythms) consistent with consciousness and a possible resumption of a network-level of cognitive and neuronal activity emerged up to 35–60 minutes into CPR. This is the first report of biomarkers of consciousness during CA/CPR.”
Parnia said, “our conclusion is that this is a real experience that emerges only with death. As we transition from life to death, somehow, this experience occurs.” “We're discovering essentially what happens to us all when we go through death; what happens to our consciousness,” he concluded.