(2017-09-13, 09:30 PM)jkmac Wrote: [ -> ]Oh come on. That is such a cliche, BS answer.
You sound like my good friend who is a born again christian. He told me that to experience God I need to believe in God. The problem is: that is circular logic. If, to believe in God you need to experience him(it?) then you have an unsolvable conundrum. You can't force yourself to believe in anything. You either do or you don't and for some (like me) it is based on evidence.
I didn't "expect" anything going into the event. I hoped to have an experience that demonstrated to me whether all of this is real.
Now you might say: well, apparently you expected nothing to happen and that's what DID happen. How can argue that point? I can't say (nor control) what is in my subconscious somewhere.
Now I saw the same things in that seance that others saw, and they were convinced. I would guess that in some way, they probably wanted to be convinced. However, I would tell you further, that they simply have a low threshold for belief. And if that's what's required to "believe" then count me out. I refuse to dumb myself down, to shut off my natural discernment for any reason. Certainly not if it is a part of a process of self delusion.
The medium even told me, as we sat and chatted before the seance, that this thing should be unambiguous and evidential and not require faith at all. And that's the way I went into it.
In the end- saying that the reason nothing happened proves that I went into it expecting same, just feels like a pat response from you, and a self affirming contention.
It's just like saying to a kid who failed their Math exam: "you apparently didn't want to (or believe you could) pass your exam. You got exactly what you expected".
What you got from the PM experience is exactly what you needed. You succeeded. If you wish to look at your experience as a failure, then that is a learning process that is entirely valid. Not that it is true...This is why the statement that
[i]"saying that the reason nothing happened proves that I went into it expecting same" is inaccurate. Something did happen, for one. Your expectations weren't met and 2) you got what you need. Both came from your ability to create your physical reality based upon the few Laws of Creation, Laws with a capital "L" as in constant, unchangeable, forever, wherever in Creation.
Faith? None needed. If you want to have the experience of "faith" then nothing wrong with that either. You expressed one experience as
"ppl dumbed down". So what? That's the experience that they desire. That's the experience that they need. It is the state of being they prefer and state of being is all that matters not the circumstances surrounding it.
Now you are left with two choices. 1) Proceed and progress within your POV or 2) Change your beliefs.[/i]
(2017-09-13, 09:33 PM)Obiwan Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah it's all your fault jkmac. Sheesh.
There's proof that reading with clarity is an art unacquainted with some. Sheesh. Btw, anytime you want to take me on, quote me directly and move forward through your cowardice, Obi. Ad hominems on the periphery are for children.
(2017-09-13, 09:30 PM)jkmac Wrote: [ -> ]You sound like my good friend who is a born again christian. He told me that to experience God I need to believe in God. The problem is: that is circular logic. If, to believe in God you need to experience him(it?) then you have an unsolvable conundrum. You can't force yourself to believe in anything. You either do or you don't and for some (like me) it is based on evidence.
Not unsolvable, I would say.
I'm not a part of any particular religion, though culturally I'm probably most familiar with Christian ideas. However I have received direct response to prayer, even when I was not in any way committed to any form of belief - in fact I was pretty much an atheist when I got one of the strongest answers to prayer.
Is that nonsensical? Why would an atheist pray? And to whom or to what would such be addressed? These things are individual, I had no answers to any of those questions. It was simply an exploration, one might almost call it an investigative experiment, but that is too dry. This is real life in all its forms.
Initially I was deeply worried that it might mean I was obliged to conform to some religion as a result. But I needn't have been concerned. Though I'm not an atheist, I'm on the outside as far as any tradition is concerned. Perhaps being outside of any religion is in itself a tradition?
(2017-09-13, 10:19 PM)Typoz Wrote: [ -> ]Not unsolvable, I would say.
I'm not a part of any particular religion, though culturally I'm probably most familiar with Christian ideas. However I have received direct response to prayer, even when I was not in any way committed to any form of belief - in fact I was pretty much an atheist when I got one of the strongest answers to prayer.
Is that nonsensical? Why would an atheist pray? And to whom or to what would such be addressed? These things are individual, I had no answers to any of those questions. It was simply an exploration, one might almost call it an investigative experiment, but that is too dry. This is real life in all its forms.
Initially I was deeply worried that it might mean I was obliged to conform to some religion as a result. But I needn't have been concerned. Though I'm not an atheist, I'm on the outside as far as any tradition is concerned. Perhaps being outside of any religion is in itself a tradition?
Perhaps unbeknownst to you consciously, your prayer was an expression of gratitude for having all the answers, information, data available to you. It also served you to initiate the questions elicited above. It showed you that the power of gratitude does not require a God, religion, or tradition.
Pretty damn good experience if you ask me.
(2017-09-13, 10:19 PM)Typoz Wrote: [ -> ]Not unsolvable, I would say.
I'm not a part of any particular religion, though culturally I'm probably most familiar with Christian ideas. However I have received direct response to prayer, even when I was not in any way committed to any form of belief - in fact I was pretty much an atheist when I got one of the strongest answers to prayer.
Is that nonsensical? Why would an atheist pray? And to whom or to what would such be addressed? These things are individual, I had no answers to any of those questions. It was simply an exploration, one might almost call it an investigative experiment, but that is too dry. This is real life in all its forms.
Initially I was deeply worried that it might mean I was obliged to conform to some religion as a result. But I needn't have been concerned. Though I'm not an atheist, I'm on the outside as far as any tradition is concerned. Perhaps being outside of any religion is in itself a tradition?
Guess what- I followed my friend's advice and not only prayed but openly invited God into my life...
Crickets.
Some would say it was because deep down I really didn't believe. That I was faking it...
(2017-09-13, 10:07 PM)Pssst Wrote: [ -> ]What you got from the PM experience is exactly what you needed. You succeeded. If you wish to look at your experience as a failure, then that is a learning process that is entirely valid. Not that it is true...This is why the statement that [i]"saying that the reason nothing happened proves that I went into it expecting same" is inaccurate. Something did happen, for one. Your expectations weren't met and 2) you got what you need. Both came from your ability to create your physical reality based upon the few Laws of Creation, Laws with a capital "L" as in constant, unchangeable, forever, wherever in Creation.
Faith? None needed. If you want to have the experience of "faith" then nothing wrong with that either. You expressed one experience as "ppl dumbed down". So what? That's the experience that they desire. That's the experience that they need. It is the state of being they prefer and state of being is all that matters not the circumstances surrounding it.
Now you are left with two choices. 1) Proceed and progress within your POV or 2) Change your beliefs.[/i]
Ahh actually no, I didn't get what I needed.
What I needed was definitive proof one way or the other. I got neither.
I'm in limbo. Still.
No. Although apparently you like the sound of yourself saying those words, they are hollow and meaningless to me.
(2017-09-14, 01:13 AM)jkmac Wrote: [ -> ]Ahh actually no, I didn't get what I needed.
What I needed was definitive proof one way or the other. I got neither.
I'm in limbo. Still.
No. Although apparently you like the sound of yourself saying those words, they are hollow and meaningless.
What would you seek for if you knew all the answers?
(2017-09-14, 01:26 AM)chuck Wrote: [ -> ]What would you seek for if you knew all the answers?
Not sure what you mean. Are you saying what would be different for me if the experience proved to me that beyond reasonable doubt, that PM was "real"?
Assuming that's what you mean-
I could stop questioning it, and I could express to others who respect my opinion and my judgement that I have reached the conclusion that this stuff is really happening. This is because a very important part of my journey at this point is to help others navigate these waters. I typically do this by pointing out the things I have come across that are convincing or dubious.
Also ironically, this knowledge and confidence that ensues may make accumulating other knowledge and experience easier through gaining the personal assurance that it exists in the first place. This gets to the Pssst post which essentially espouses the annoying mindset that one can't experience this stuff if they have any doubt that it exists. I find this way of looking at the whole subject matter infuriating as some might have seen from my response to his posts.
I have also been working on Shamanic skills for the last couple years, and I would like to use them to help others in whatever ways I can. By moving beyond the validation of PM I would have more time and perhaps confidence to approach that challenge.
Also I have a similar interest in investigating the astral and other regions of the non-physical via OBE. Moving beyond my PM investigation would give me some time and confidence for that process as well.
To me, my journey is about discovery and validation for the purpose of building a personal map of the landscape that these phenomenon comprise. I can't explain why, but I am compelled to do so. I think this is what I am supposed to do, and perhaps I can use my experience as a beacon for others to follow.
Hope that gets to your question. If not, let me know and I'll take another shot at answering.
(2017-09-14, 01:08 AM)jkmac Wrote: [ -> ]Guess what- I followed my friend's advice and not only prayed but openly invited God into my life...
Crickets.
Some would say it was because deep down I really didn't believe. I was faking it...
OK, I can relate to that too. I won't aim to alter your opinion.
What I would add is that at present I don't care for over dramatic presentation of stories, hence the very bare, dry description I gave, I hinted though that it was a part of real life. The situation, circumstances, where I was in my life were highly relevant.
(2017-09-14, 08:54 AM)Typoz Wrote: [ -> ]OK, I can relate to that too. I won't aim to alter your opinion.
What I would add is that at present I don't care for over dramatic presentation of stories, hence the very bare, dry description I gave, I hinted though that it was a part of real life. The situation, circumstances, where I was in my life were highly relevant.
OK.
I'm trying to remain open to whatever there is "out there" for me. But deciding beforehand that the thing I am open to, exists, is a bridge to far for me. It would be false and I would know in my bones that I was faking it.
So if that trait limits me, that will have to be my fate.