(2017-10-05, 03:52 PM)chuck Wrote: [ -> ]Well there is no doubt on number 1. It's far too common an experience to dispute. What can be discussed it what exactly is occurring when you "leave the body." I expect the answer is close to "There is really no body to leave. Consciousness is a fundamental element of reality and the OBE is some kind of separation of the "mind" from the body, which is really an illusion, like all matter." Is the mind an illusion is a valid question.
To me, there is always a sense that at rock bottom Idealism probably rules, but I feel it is rather like looking at the science of billiard balls (or even planets), Newton's laws are more or less good enough even for planets, but we all know (or at least let's assume) there is ultimately GR.
Thus I think it is more useful to approach psychic phenomena from a Dualistic perspective, even though Idealism is probably there at the bottom. From that perspective, there is a body to leave!
Some people also come back with a lot of information about various astral planes, and some, like Andy on Skeptiko, and Graham Nicholls, certainly claim to have experienced veridical information while out of body.
I'm rather wary of going down the route of dismissing some evidence because it doesn't match a theory.
David
(2017-10-05, 04:59 PM)DaveB Wrote: [ -> ]To me, there is always a sense that at rock bottom Idealism probably rules, but I feel it is rather like looking at the science of billiard balls (or even planets), Newton's laws are more or less good enough even for planets, but we all know (or at least let's assume) there is ultimately GR.
Thus I think it is more useful to approach psychic phenomena from a Dualistic perspective, even though Idealism is probably there at the bottom. From that perspective, there is a body to leave!
Some people also come back with a lot of information about various astral planes, and some, like Andy on Skeptiko, and Graham Nicholls, certainly claim to have experienced veridical information while out of body.
I'm rather wary of going down the route of dismissing some evidence because it doesn't match a theory.
David
I don't disagree. There is of course an apparent physical universe and an apparent body. I'm not dismissing any evidence. I don't disagree with any of the folks writing on the OBE or dreaming, in general.
(2017-10-05, 03:41 PM)DaveB Wrote: [ -> ]Aren't there two utterly different questions here:
1) Do OBE's happen as advertised?
2) Are they safe?
David
1) Some do, some don't, it's a personal thing.
2) If by 'safe' you mean you return to body, so to speak, in one piece or uninjured. I haven't heard of any the elite OBErs claim anything except the safety of the OBE. What you do hear, constantly, is how difficult it is to stay in the OB state.
But let's say for the fun of it, the OBE is possibly unsafe. Who you gonna blame? It's your physical reality that you are manifesting, if you create an OBE that is unsafe, then so be it.