Psience Quest

(2020-04-20, 05:23 PM)Brian Wrote: [ -> ]https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/article...hind-NDEs?

"Expectation surely plays a part in the overall NDE; the differences between cultures mentioned above are testament to that. But expectation seems to play an even deeper role.

Interestingly, NDEs sometimes occur in people who were, in reality, nowhere near death, they just thought they were. One study that included 58 patients’ experiences of NDEs found that 30 were not, in fact, close to dying."

The important thing to remember is that the prospective studies of NDE's have all focussed on cardiac arrest patients. Expectation doesn't come into it. Patient's who's hearts suddenly stop, don't have time to start inventing scenarios about what might happen to them when they die. Atheists with no expectation of anything have had life changing NDE's.

The differing cultural aspects of the reports don't trouble me either. Sceptics like to make a big deal out of this, insinuating that because the reports have differences, that means that they can't be real or rather they must be confabulations. There are varying ideas as to why they are different but what we can do is leave those cultural aspects to one side and concentrate on the veridical aspects of the experience (out of body reports).

I'm personally satisfied (based on the evidence) that veridical information gained during cardiac arrests is attributable to patients leaving their bodies. However, it hasn't been established to a sufficient level to change mainstream science yet. That's what Parnia is attempting to do. 

The article is quite poor really, in that it's just repeating worn out old hypotheses that have never been proven. I don't think that materialist science has got anything left to chuck at the experience, to be honest. So we're stuck until the 'ghost' of one of Parnia's patients decides to inspect what is on the top of a metal pole in the room.

Interesting article on...

Hellish NDEs

(2020-04-27, 05:14 PM)Stan Woolley Wrote: [ -> ]Interesting article on...

Hellish NDEs

Yes, I tend to agree with him, to some extent, but then the woman (with the extraordinary name) is still partially right. As I said, I prefer not to dwell on it too much because you can't win (if you get my drift)

EDIT: my internet connection keeps going down (with ever greater regularity), Stan so I won't be able to respond.

(2020-04-27, 06:14 PM)tim Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, I tend to agree with him, to some extent, but then the woman (with the extraordinary name) is still partially right. As I said, I prefer not to dwell on it too much because you can't win (if you get my drift)

EDIT: my internet connection keeps going down (with ever greater regularity), Stan so I won't be able to respond.

I think David has shown that she really isn’t. 
He has shown that they are underreported. It’s natural, jeez, if people are hesitant to talk about ‘nice’ NDEs, then they’d be far more hesitant to talk about hellish ones. Ones that automatically are assumed to put them in a bad light. Don’t you see that you might add to that hesitancy by preferring not to talk about them and preferring me not to post them? (I know no one is stopping me, but it seems rather obvious that you’re not keen on them)

I think that an example of this is Eben Alexander. His NDE articles often totally ignore the ‘worms eye view’ part and move rather quickly to the nice bits. Why? If we’re to investigate NDEs properly, then we can’t pick and choose what we like and pretend hellish ones/bits don’t exist? 

I don’t get your drift actually. Why ‘can’t you win’? I’m mostly on the losing side, after a while it’s not so bad! 

(2020-04-28, 08:46 AM)Stan Woolley Wrote: [ -> ]I think David has shown that she really isn’t. 
He has shown that they are underreported. It’s natural, jeez, if people are hesitant to talk about ‘nice’ NDEs, then they’d be far more hesitant to talk about hellish ones. Ones that automatically are assumed to put them in a bad light. Don’t you see that you might add to that hesitancy by preferring not to talk about them and preferring me not to post them? (I know no one is stopping me, but it seems rather obvious that you’re not keen on them)

I think that an example of this is Eben Alexander. His NDE articles often totally ignore the ‘worms eye view’ part and move rather quickly to the nice bits. Why? If we’re to investigate NDEs properly, then we can’t pick and choose what we like and pretend hellish ones/bits don’t exist? 

I don’t get your drift actually. Why ‘can’t you win’? I’m mostly on the losing side, after a while it’s not so bad! 

Stan said > "I think David has shown that she really isn’t."

Maybe but I'd prefer to wait for more persuasive data before drawing any conclusions about that.

Stan said >"It’s natural, jeez, if people are hesitant to talk about ‘nice’ NDEs, then they’d be far more hesitant to talk about hellish ones. Ones that automatically are assumed to put them in a bad light. Don’t you see that you might add to that hesitancy by preferring not to talk about them and preferring me not to post them?

Well, firstly Stan, there aren't that many hellish NDE's on line (for me to post anyway even if I could get permission to do so) and the people that have them are of course hesitant to talk about it.

Secondly, there's the problem of authenticity. If I'm going to post an NDE, I need to know it's not been made up by someone with a prior agenda to try to influence people. I'm referring here to the reports that seem to be favoured by bible thumpers. They sure do believe in hell, god damn it. (no disrespect to sincere Religious people though) 

But I'm not just going to take someone's word that they've died and been to hell (and back) just because they say so (on line), when they can't even provide documentation of their medical crisis, even if the caption does have a guy with horns on his head. 

The only negative NDE's in a prospective study were the two(?) found by Penny Sartori. One of those was so horrific for the person, she wouldn't even talk about it and broke down in tears of anguish. The second I think, was a woman who was frightened of water and seemed to find a vision of woman in a boat (on a lake), scary. 

I'm not saying that all the people who have hellish NDE's have made them up of course. I think there is a place describable as hell but the people who've really had them are probably (as you've alluded to) not the one's going on about it. 

Stan said >"His (Eben Alexander) NDE articles often totally ignore the ‘worms eye view’ part and move rather quickly to the nice bits. Why?

Firstly I don't think the earth worm's eye view was hell.  And a lot of the articles about his NDE don't ignore it but surely the point of publishing/writing up/and reading NDE's is to try present/find something uplifting rather than depressing? The vast majority of NDE's are positive. Sadly not all of them it seems.

But how could I possibly appear non judgemental (as one must be) if I kept shoving negative NDE's down people's throats ? I would certainly appear judgemental. What else could be deduced from it ? It would be judgemental and self righteous, to boot.  

Do you think you'll experience hell, Stan ? If not, what is the criteria for staying out ? And how can we have a meaningful discussion about something which is so hard to quantify and is beyond our control. (Nice people have also seen hell)

What can we really say about it, without appearing to be holier than thou ? What's the formula for salvation ? Does god only love saints, or does he secretly admire those  with a bit of the devil in them (rogues)? Where's the cut off point ? We all have our own ideas, of course.   

They are issues that may have a place, but not to attract people to a forum, I'm afraid. You may disagree, of course.

Quote:but surely the point of publishing/writing up/and reading NDE's is to try present/find something uplifting rather than depressing?

Definitely not, that’s how truth gets distorted. Reporting things honestly is more important than anything else imo. 

Quote:But how could I possibly appear non judgemental (as one must be) if I kept shoving negative NDE's down people's throats ? I would certainly appear judgemental. What else could be deduced from it ? It would be judgemental and self righteous, to boot.  

I don’t agree at all. 

Reporting hellish NDEs doesn’t make the reporter anything. They’re just reporting things of interest, they’re definitely not there to paint over a picture which might not be to their liking. As I said, I think honesty is vital. 

You seem to think I post a skewed number of hellish NDEs. I never even thought about that until you made me consider the possibility. I post lots of NDEs, I would be surprised if I post a number biased towards scary ones. However I don’t shirk from posting them. I would be more inclined to post a ‘nice’ one rather than a hellish one on my Facebook page, as any readers there are more likely to be NDE virgins than members here.

In fact I think there will be a good reason for people having their scary NDEs, no one has ever come back from such an experience physically injured, as far as I know. 

Quote:Do you think you'll experience hell, Stan ? If not, what is the criteria for staying out ? And how can we have a meaningful discussion about something which is so hard to quantify and is beyond our control. (Nice people have also seen hell)

I’ve no idea Tim. All I can do is make my choices and hope they’re ones that keep me in the good books.

How can we have a meaningful discussion about NDEs in general if being ‘hard to quantify and is beyond our control’ is a filter? I don’t think ignoring hellish reports is the way. Perhaps ‘nice people’ aren’t in fact that nice, or they are being taught some kind of an important lesson, who knows? As I said, those that do report hellish NDEs have survived them. 

Quote:They are issues that may have a place, but not to attract people to a forum, I'm afraid.

Attracting people to the forum is one thing, being honest with them once they’re here is another.

(2020-04-28, 03:39 PM)Stan Woolley Wrote: [ -> ]Definitely not, that’s how truth gets distorted. Reporting things honestly is more important than anything else imo. 

I don’t agree at all. 

Reporting hellish NDEs doesn’t make the reporter anything. They’re just reporting things of interest, they’re definitely not there to paint over a picture which might not be to their liking. As I said, I think honesty is vital. 

You seem to think I post a skewed number of hellish NDEs. I never even thought about that until you made me consider the possibility. I post lots of NDEs, I would be surprised if I post a number biased towards scary ones. However I don’t shirk from posting them. I would be more inclined to post a ‘nice’ one rather than a hellish one on my Facebook page, as any readers there are more likely to be NDE virgins than members here.

In fact I think there will be a good reason for people having their scary NDEs, no one has ever come back from such an experience physically injured, as far as I know. 


I’ve no idea Tim. All I can do is make my choices and hope they’re ones that keep me in the good books.

How can we have a meaningful discussion about NDEs in general if being ‘hard to quantify and is beyond our control’ is a filter? I don’t think ignoring hellish reports is the way. Perhaps ‘nice people’ aren’t in fact that nice, or they are being taught some kind of an important lesson, who knows? As I said, those that do report hellish NDEs have survived them. 


Attracting people to the forum is one thing, being honest with them once they’re here is another.

Stan said >"Definitely not, that’s how truth gets distorted. Reporting things honestly is more important than anything else imo.

Reporting only positive NDE's isn't in itself dishonest or distorting the truth, as long as the reports are accurate and honest. It's only being selective not dishonest. People are well aware of hellish NDE's and they are well aware that I know they exist. 

You make it sound like there's some kind of conspiracy going on with yours truly trying to convince people that everyone's going to heaven. Come off it, Stan, you're being imprecise again. 

Stan said>" I would be more inclined to post a ‘nice’ one rather than a hellish one on my Facebook page, as any readers there are more likely to be NDE virgins than members here.

Why? You're contradicting yourself there, surely ?

Stan said >"How can we have a meaningful discussion* about NDEs in general if being ‘hard to quantify and is beyond our control’ is a filter? I don’t think ignoring hellish reports is the way. Perhaps ‘nice people’ aren’t in fact that nice, or they are being taught some kind of an important lesson, who knows? As I said, those that do report hellish NDEs have survived them. 

Firstly* because I don't know of anything to say other than to revert to the obvious. Good guys go to heaven and bad guys go to hell. But that doesn't seem to be the case, does it. So, we hear a story about a nice guy seeing hell and then what ? We ask him...what do you think you did to deserve that, then ?

"I don't know, I've actually no idea"...and there we are. Conversation over. Secondly :

Stan said >"As I said, those that do report hellish NDEs have survived them.

You mean it hasn't destroyed them (mentally) presumably ?

Stan said > "Attracting people to the forum is one thing, being honest with them once they’re here is another.

That's bullshit, Stan and offensive too. It's absurd that anyone would think I was trying to conceal hellish NDE's. What the f--k would be the point of such an exercise and for what reason would I do that ? What a bizarre thing to say as if people are so uninformed about the phenomenon of NDE's that they haven't heard about hellish ones.

Thought I might as well post this here: 
Near-Death Experiences among Iranian muslim cardiopulmonary resuscitation survivors

It's generally a usual cross-cultural examination that's been well-thought out IMO, though the conclusions are the notable part: 

Quote:Results: Four main themes emerged including 1) pleasing experiences along with flying and seeing light, 2) the experience of transport to the beyond, 3) out-of-body experience, and 4) reviewing life and memories in a religious context. Conclusions: Iranian Muslim CPR survivors, reported NDEs, much similar to those reported by survivors in Western countries with different theistic religions. This means that medical professionals dealing with these patients need to be aware of such experiences in Iranian Muslims.

There are several examples of NDEs described in this research as well, such as this one:

Quote:I was being pulled toward a source of extreme light. I can remember the light. I was watching it, and after some time, it was over. The light was white and maybe sometimes dark. I had a feeling of flying and weightlessness. (Participant No. 4).

That's a great spot, Omni, well done ! I'll take a closer look at that when I've got time but it appears to be entirely consistent with western NDE's. A very close friend of mine died recently and it was sudden, unexpected (cardiac arrest) and a shock for all concerned. 

I would encourage everyone of a certain age (not you Omni, you're only young) to prepare for the inevitable because it's coming, whether we like it or not. My friend was full of life one minute, gone in the next. I did have a rather nice experience with a butterfly, (immediately after the funeral) when I was getting changed back into my ordinary clothes.

A red admiral was in my room (on the wall) but how it got in there I have no idea (honestly) as the windows were shut. I was (easily) able to take hold of it and let it out. Was that my friend's way of saying goodbye ? If it wasn't, it was a hell of a coincidence !

(2020-09-06, 10:11 AM)tim Wrote: [ -> ]A red admiral was in my room (on the wall) but how it got in there I have no idea (honestly) as the windows were shut. I was (easily) able to take hold of it and let it out. Was that my friend's way of saying goodbye ? If it wasn't, it was a hell of a coincidence !

I'll leave the meaning or significance up to you.

However, I recently noticed a butterfly on the inside of one of my windows. I was puzzled as to how it got there. But I suspect that a caterpillar may have marched in at some time and concealed itself. Then hatched into a butterfly much later. I opened the window and it flew away.