Modern physics midgets imagine themselves wiser than the giants of the past

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(2021-02-10, 11:35 PM)nbtruthman Wrote: This would be greatly to be desired, but it may be impossible at least as science is defined now and has been for many years. Science is supposed to be experimentally based, with the absolute requirement for hypothesis forming, predictions made from the hypothesis, experimentation or observation confirming or disconfirming the hypothesis, and finally theory forming if the experimental or observational verification succeeded. 

The paranormal is notoriously (almost deliberately) elusive of experimental verification - in general most paranormal phenomena can't be experimentally duplicated at will, occurring rarely, capriciously and spontaneously in everyday life as with rare traumatic events leading to NDEs. Reincarnation memories can't be experimentally induced other than the questionable evocation of such apparent memories during regression hypnosis. With most of these phenomena the core of the evidence consists of human accounts of experiences, not  instrumental recordings. Many of these rare occurrences are independently investigated and confirmed, so they can be classed as veridical empirical evidence, but orthodox science generally claims the occurrences are anecdotal and therefore worthless. 

PSI can be attempted to be duplicated in laboratory setups, but the effects though shown to be real are usually only shown to be so at very low P value margins over chance. Very rarely is this rule exceeded. Large and dramatic values over chance can only be produced by combining large numbers of experimental series in single analyses. Whereas dramatic PSI does happen, but this is very rarely and not in the lab environment. 

So it seems to me that the "powers that be" have dictated that the nature of our physical world and physical life in body does not except in rare and unusual circumstances permit manifestation of dramatic PSI or psychical phenomena, the kind of repeatable manifestations that can be investigated by science. This unfortunate fact of life would seem to prevent parapsychology from ever becoming a full-fledged "science". I wish things were otherwise, but this seems to be the case.

This leaves the situation where the accumulating weight of massive amounts of empirical evidence mostly consisting of paranormal phenomena like veridical NDEs, mediumistic communications and reincarnation memories may eventually overcome the cultural stagnation in physicalism, but it is a very slow process. Science based on the physicalism paradigm has been very very successful in advancing knowledge of the physical world and bettering the lives of humans, and it doesn't look like science is going to be transformed somehow to accommodate PSI and the paranormal. Hopefully, people may just come to accept the reality of both despite their seeming contradiction.

I don't think it's as bad as all that. To quote the Sam Cooke classic, "A Change is Gonna Come"....

For example I just posted a Jan 2021 paper where the once-adamant-atheist Kauffman wrote with Radin regarding a theory of quantum mind. He's also gone on record that "souls are not impossible". 

We're seeing a slow but I believe increasing trickle from field and quantum effects having a part in biological systems. So the demand of mechanism is becoming clearer.

Carpenter's theory of First Sight, which proposes that Psi is always working for everyone, gives us a path toward a new way of looking at the phenomena.

People are starting to increasingly see the divide between efficacy of science and philosophy/religion of Physicalism. Even Idealism is on the table, with Essentia Foundation pushing this line of thinking even more.

Culturally people are quite interested in parapsychology, whether it's the Leslie Kean documentary, varied mediumship and ghost hunting shows, or the episode of celebrity Zac Effron talking with a doctor about the reality of healings at Lourde.

Strassman and Galimore are trying to extend the DMT trip for easy exploration of wherever those lead. Increasing psychdelic therapy options are going to have more people realizing some of the commonalities in those experiences.

Resuscitation is going to get better, which means more NDEs are going to get reported.

Ufology is sliding into mainstream acceptance. Once people really start looking it's going to be clear the "nuts & bolts" hypothesis isn't going to cut it.

Science is about asking questions about reality. That reality is increasingly going to have clear connections between that which is "mundane" and that which is "supernatural".
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'

- Bertrand Russell


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(2021-02-10, 10:10 PM)Smaw Wrote: I can feel this too in regards to the psuedoskeptic thing. If we're gonna respond to stuff we need to properly engage with it, not just throw out labels and attacks. This is what I try to do a little at least, give things a bit more of an in depth look, not just rest on our laurels. And with the same old stuff just kind of a slow grind really, we have to wait for progress but who knew progress in science is sloooooow so all we've got is the stuff we've got.

Personally, I don't see it as a slow wait for progress. That to me is a bit like saying, "I wonder what's on tv", and finding out it's just the same old stuff. I don't really expect the tv programming to change. But nor do I let it run my life.

When it comes to parapsychology and psi, I've long lived with this stuff in my life as a kind of background. I'm not talking about dramatic events or great mysteries. Just coming to terms with my own life, and the impact of psi within it. To give a parallel, I was reflecting today over how many decades it took me to understand the many effects on my body of drinking water, and the consequences of becoming dehydrated to a greater or lesser extent. Nowadays I can see the interplay of fluid intake and hydration on my body - and mind - and am coming to understand it. But no-one talks about this stuff. Well, they do, but it is the act of observation, self-observation, over many years, decades, which means I have at least a basic understanding of water.

The psi stuff came to me earlier. It is just as ordinary as water, nothing to get excited about, but the act of self-observation - and frequently a sense of puzzlement as well as joy and distress, which allowed me to gain some sort of handle on the impact of psi on my life. In terms of the sequencing, I understood at least a little of psi years before I understood water.

However, regarding the long protracted wait for the slow progress of what someone else is doing, that doesn't hold my attention, it isn't my focus. Self-observation has always been the route for me. But let's not get geeky about this, I just live an ordinary life like everyone else and do the same ordinary things, it isn't anything offbeat or strange. Just the ordinary rough-and-tumble of everyday existence.
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(2021-02-11, 09:52 AM)Typoz Wrote: Personally, I don't see it as a slow wait for progress. That to me is a bit like saying, "I wonder what's on tv", and finding out it's just the same old stuff. I don't really expect the tv programming to change. But nor do I let it run my life.

When it comes to parapsychology and psi, I've long lived with this stuff in my life as a kind of background. I'm not talking about dramatic events or great mysteries. Just coming to terms with my own life, and the impact of psi within it. To give a parallel, I was reflecting today over how many decades it took me to understand the many effects on my body of drinking water, and the consequences of becoming dehydrated to a greater or lesser extent. Nowadays I can see the interplay of fluid intake and hydration on my body - and mind - and am coming to understand it. But no-one talks about this stuff. Well, they do, but it is the act of observation, self-observation, over many years, decades, which means I have at least a basic understanding of water.

The psi stuff came to me earlier. It is just as ordinary as water, nothing to get excited about, but the act of self-observation - and frequently a sense of puzzlement as well as joy and distress, which allowed me to gain some sort of handle on the impact of psi on my life. In terms of the sequencing, I understood at least a little of psi years before I understood water.

However, regarding the long protracted wait for the slow progress of what someone else is doing, that doesn't hold my attention, it isn't my focus. Self-observation has always been the route for me. But let's not get geeky about this, I just live an ordinary life like everyone else and do the same ordinary things, it isn't anything offbeat or strange. Just the ordinary rough-and-tumble of everyday existence.

That's fair. I've never had any experiences, visited any mediums, done any experiments or anything. I've known 1 person who has had an NDE second hand but other than that nothin. Haven't even ever talked to a proper researcher. So I'm going pretty much just on data, hence my emphasis, and a little bit of my attitude I suppose.
(2021-02-09, 05:38 PM)nbtruthman Wrote: Great physicist Max Planck had quite immaterial views on the nature of the universe. I guess the present materialist consensus-clinging cohort of physicists automatically dismiss Plank's views, midgets imagining themselves to be above the stature of giants like Planck, in the metaphysics department. 

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force that brings the parts of the atom in vibration, and keeps the smallest solar system of the universe together. As there in the entire universe does not exist an intelligent force, nor an eternal force- man has not yet succeeded in inventing the perpetuum mobile- so must we assume behind this force the existence of a conscious intelligent spirit. This spirit is the basis of all matter. The visible but impermanent matter is not the reality and truth- because without spirit, matter wouldn’t exist at all- but the invisible, immortal spirit is the truth. Because every spirit belongs to a being, we are forced to assume it to be a spiritual being. Because spiritual beings do not come about by themselves, but must be created, I will not hesitate in fact, to call this secretive creator, like people of all cultures through millennia has done, God. Thereby moves the physicist who dealt with matter, from the realm of stuff to the realm of the spirit. And so is our task ended, and we must then pass on the research into the hands of the philosophers."


This is from a lecture, ‘Das Wesen der Materie’ (The Essence/Nature/Character of Matter), given in Florence, Italy (1944). Archiv zur Geschichte der Max-Planck-Gesellschaft, Abt. Va, Rep. 11 Planck, Nr. 1797. Excerpt in Gregg Braden, The Spontaneous Healing of Belief: Shattering the Paradigm of False Limits (2009), 334-35.
I am certain you are unable to differentiate the expression of personal belief from factual expression.  There was at least one other giant, his name was Einstein and he had no tolerance for mysticism.
(2021-02-11, 12:49 PM)Steve001 Wrote: I am certain you are unable to differentiate the expression of personal belief from factual expression.  There was at least one other giant, his name was Einstein and he had no tolerance for mysticism.

This Einstein, the one who wrote the introduction to Upton Sinclair's Mental Radio? ->

Quote:I have read the book of Upton Sinclair with great interest  and am convinced that the same deserves the most earnest consideration, not only of the laity, but also of the psychologists by profession. The results of the telepathic experiments carefully and plainly set forth in this book stand surely far beyond those which a nature investigator holds to be thinkable. On the other hand, it is out of the question in the case of so conscientious an observer and writer as Upton Sinclair that he is carrying on a conscious deception of the reading world; his good faith and dependability are not to be doubted. So if somehow the facts here set forth rest not upon telepathy, but upon some unconscious hypnotic influence from person to person, this also would be of high psychological interest. In no case should the psychologically interested circles pass over this book heedlessly.

[signed] A. EINSTEIN
edit: fixed link, old one was gone
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'

- Bertrand Russell


(This post was last modified: 2021-02-11, 03:35 PM by Sciborg_S_Patel.)
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(2021-02-11, 03:33 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: This Einstein, the one who wrote the introduction to Upton Sinclair's Mental Radio? ->

edit: fixed link, old one was gone
Yup. The very same man that derisively balked at the idea of "spooky action at a distance".  He was a good friend of Upton and as a kindness honored his friends request to write the preface.
(2021-02-11, 06:46 PM)Steve001 Wrote: Yup. The very same man that derisively balked at the idea of "spooky action at a distance".  He was a good friend of Upton and as a kindness honored his friends request to write the preface.

I don't even know what you're trying to say here - are you saying his complaint about quantum entanglement is proof he was against mysticism?

Regarding support[ing] a friend's belief in Psi, that went both ways ->

Albert Einstein Endorsed a Popular Psychic in 1932. This Is the Controversy that Ensued

'Upton Sinclair, among others, leapt to the physicist's defense.'
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'

- Bertrand Russell


(This post was last modified: 2021-02-11, 07:11 PM by Sciborg_S_Patel.)
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