Indridi Indridason's contact with Emil Jensen

This is a very interesting debate And I must admit that is very hard to address some of the comments here. I am willing to admit that there is a possibility that the Marconi station didn’t receive the telegram about the fire in Copenhagen. However, that doesn’t exclude other possibilities for getting the information needed for making the case. For example, both Haraldur Nielsson and Einar Kvaran biographies say that they had been living in Copenhagen. We don’t know how often they had been travelling there. I could speculate that one of them, or some other person from their circle, had some info about Emile Jensen from other sources beside the obituary. The fact Jensen lived in the street where the fire broke (among other addresses) could had been a very strange coincidence.
 
@Wanderer said 
 
“Perhaps the people involved did not consider this case so extraordinary, since it was just yet another instance of veridical information. Haraldsson calls it a ’perfect case’, but we don't whether the people involved considered it a ‘perfect case’, or considered it extraordinary at all.”
 
If this is true, then this might explain why they didn’t bother at all with the confirmation of the Jensen case. Also, if they knew this was all a show, why bother at all proving something - as you say not so extraordinary - when you had already made your point with other “miracles”? 
 
Beside trying to explain the claims made by the Indridi proponents there are other angles to explore. What interests me also is a socio-political atmosphere in Iceland in the beginning of the 20. century. I have tried to find more info about possible motives of Einar Kvaran and Haraldur Nielsson to promote spiritualism as a fact. I think that this case could had been embellished by proponents of Indridi Indridason to strengthen their political agenda, as a political project. I will post two interesting quotes:
 
“But this political reflection was also based on a passionate interest in spiritualist theories and, in particular, in those focusing on the return of ancestors. It is obvious that in most Reformed countries, including Denmark, this movement was extremely popular at the end of the nineteenth century. Yet it takes on a special dimension in Iceland, because the process of national reconstruction is based not only on the need to establish a republican constitution, but also on a ’new religion’, one’s own that, while remaining Christian, would distinguish itself from colonial Christianity. This spiritualist movement made it possible to conjure up ancestors and rely on them to create this new religion. According to the words of Haraldur Nielsson, theologian and nephew of the bishop of Iceland, the aim was to ‘reconstruct a rationalist Lutheranism based on positive faith that the spiritualist way will strengthen and ennoble’ (Jónsson, 1968: 72-73). Therefore, at the turn of that century, the unofficial histories of religious spiritualism and political independence merged in the livingrooms of Reykjavík where politicians, essayists, poets and clergy met around mediums giving voice to ‘ancestors’. These experiences, still private, would then rapidly enjoy a popular success.”
 
“But, at the same time, after a local government was recognized in 1904, the dynamic forces of spiritualism made their solemn declaration of national independence by presenting, on the ancient plains of the Parliament of Þingvellir, the very young but oh so popular medium Indriði Indriðason astride a fiery white stallion, mimicking as such the revived image of Óðin, the shaman-god, on his mythical mount Sleipnir.”
 
Source: IDENTITY THROUGH DNA AND SPIRITUALISM IN ICELAND, Christophe Pons
 
These historical facts explain possible motives for promoting Indrid’s “miracles”. People controlling the circle around the medium had a political agenda – independent Iceland. And they needed a “new religion” to strengthen the spirit of Icelanders.
 
Also, a few notes about Einar Kvaran. In 1924. he was promoting a fraudulent medium Einer Nielsen from Denmark:
 
“In 1922 in Christiania, Oslo, Nielsen was pronounced a fraud but seemed to have completely reinstated himself in 1924 in Reykjavik, in sittings for the Psychical Research Society of Iceland… The report of the novelist Einar H. Kvaran, endorsed by scientists and other people of high standing, recorded the materialization of forms, sometimes two appearing simultaneously near the medium while he himself was within view.”
 
Source: https://www.encyclopedia.com/science/enc...ner-d-1965
 
I don’t think that Kvaran was so naïve that he wasn’t aware of the accusations before he invited Nielsen to “perform” in Iceland. So, perhaps he promoted spiritualism with the political agenda on his mind.

In some of the Haraldsson papers it is clearly stated that Indridi performed only in the dark and under the control of Haraldur Nielsson. Some of his contemporaries said that Indridi was a skilful imitator and ventriloquist. This raises a lot of questions at least for me. In the end this is a very interesting case. I admit that it is hard to explain every detail as all this allegedly happened more than 100 years ago. And most of the sources come from proponents and one report written by a sceptic happened during seances conducted under the control of proponents. The fact that Indridi was being promoted as a star medium with a purpose of building the new Icelandic nation is indeed fascinating.

The fact Jensen lived in the street where the fire broke (among other addresses) could had been a very strange coincidence.

That is very unlikely. The population in Copenhagen in 1901 was 468936 persons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Copenhagen So the probability that a specific person would live only two doors away from the fire is very low.

However, that doesn’t exclude other possibilities for getting the information needed for making the case. For example, both Haraldur Nielsson and Einar Kvaran biographies say that they had been living in Copenhagen. We don’t know how often they had been travelling there. I could speculate that one of them, or some other person from their circle, had some info about Emile Jensen from other sources beside the obituary.

As @RViewer88 wrote:
"Also you don't understand the point being made about the verification. The argument you and others make is that the Experimental Society were fraudsters trying to hoodwink people with paranormal marvels that were all fake. But according to Haraldsson there is no evidence that they ever tried to prove to their supposed victims that the Jensen who communicated was a verifiable person. They never went and pretended to discover the obituaries or other docs about Jensen they had all along and go to their victims and say "look it was all real!" Even in talks and other things years later Experimental Society members made discussing Jensen they don't bring up anything about how he was proven real. Why bother to pull a fraud specifically based on real info about someone who died only to make nothing of that info? They could much more easily have made someone up out of thin air. This fraud scenario doesn't make sense."
This competely rules out the possibility of conscious fraud regarding the veridical information about Emil Jensen.
However, it is still possible that they could have heard the information from other sources and that cryptomnesia could be the explanation for the veridical information about Jensen. Also, That explanation would however still have a big problem: If Indridi was aware that Jensen lived two doors away from the fire, then why did he not mention it? Indridi was trying to convince them that a spirit was communicating through him, so why not give them all veridical information that he was subconsciously aware of? If Indridi wasn't aware that Jensen lived two doors away from the fire, then why would Indridi tell them about the fire speaking as Jensen out of all possible communicators?

These historical facts explain possible motives for promoting Indrid’s “miracles”. People controlling the circle around the medium had a political agenda – independent Iceland. And they needed a “new religion” to strengthen the spirit of Icelanders.

This does indeed help to explain their interest in spiritualism and mediumship. However, that doesn't say anything about whether mediums has real paranormal abilities or not.

Also, a few notes about Einar Kvaran. In 1924. he was promoting a fraudulent medium Einer Nielsen from Denmark:
 
“In 1922 in Christiania, Oslo, Nielsen was pronounced a fraud but seemed to have completely reinstated himself in 1924 in Reykjavik, in sittings for the Psychical Research Society of Iceland… The report of the novelist Einar H. Kvaran, endorsed by scientists and other people of high standing, recorded the materialization of forms, sometimes two appearing simultaneously near the medium while he himself was within view.”
 
Source: https://www.encyclopedia.com/science/enc...ner-d-1965
 
I don’t think that Kvaran was so naïve that he wasn’t aware of the accusations before he invited Nielsen to “perform” in Iceland. So, perhaps he promoted spiritualism with the political agenda on his mind.

There are no good reasons to assume that Nielsen was a fraud. Haraldsson argues in this article in Edgescience 30, on page 10-12, that Nielsen was an genuine medium. https://www.scientificexploration.org/edgescience/30 Try this link instead if it would not work: https://web.archive.org/web/202209051622...m3q%2Bo%3D No matter whether Nielsen was a genuine medium or not, the accusations from the norwegian commitee are not a good reason to consider Nielsen fraudulent. Haraldsson explains why on page 10-11 of the article in Edgescience. The psychical researcher Eric Dingwall wrote on page 327-328 that "it is difficult to accept the committee’s findings as to fraud on part of the medium. There is really very little evidence to indicate that the medium acted as the committee allege." http://iapsop.com/archive/materials/spr_...921-22.pdf
Kvaran was aware of the accusations, and Haraldsson writes on page 11 of the article in Edgescience that "In light of the Oslo investigations, extraordinary precautions were taken and Nielsen was thoroughly tested."

Some of his contemporaries said that Indridi was a skilful imitator and ventriloquist.

The independent investigator Hannesson was aware of the possibility that Indridi could be a ventriloquist and took that into account in his investigation. The investigation can be read here: http://iapsop.com/archive/materials/aspr...8_1924.pdf

And most of the sources come from proponents and one report written by a sceptic happened during seances conducted under the control of proponents.

I don't understand why it would be a problem that the séance happened under the control of proponents, as long as the independent investigator was allowed to do what he thought was necessary in order to ensure that fraud was not possible.

I think that the best way for a skeptic to argue would be to claim that the séance with the fire did not take place and that the case was made up later after they had gotten information about the fire in Copenhagen. Then all the veridical information about Emil Jensen would have to be explained with Indridi getting the information about Jensen from some unknown source and subconsciously remembering it, in other words cryptomnesia. Then the fact that the made up fire case involved the Jensen communciator while at the same time the Jensen communicator lived so close to the fire would have to be explained as an coincidence. I don't think that it's possible to rule this out with complete certainty, so for that reason I don't think the case is "perfect". However, I do think that a paranormal explanation is a much more likely explanation.

There are no good reasons to assume that Nielsen was a fraud. Haraldsson argues in this article in Edgescience 30, on page 10-12, that Nielsen was an genuine medium. https://www.scientificexploration.org/edgescience/30 Try this link instead if it would not work: https://web.archive.org/web/202209051622...m3q%2Bo%3D No matter whether Nielsen was a genuine medium or not, the accusations from the norwegian commitee are not a good reason to consider Nielsen fraudulent. Haraldsson explains why on page 10-11 of the article in Edgescience. The psychical researcher Eric Dingwall wrote on page 327-328 that "it is difficult to accept the committee’s findings as to fraud on part of the medium. There is really very little evidence to indicate that the medium acted as the committee allege." http://iapsop.com/archive/materials/spr_...921-22.pdf
Kvaran was aware of the accusations, and Haraldsson writes on page 11 of the article in Edgescience that "In light of the Oslo investigations, extraordinary precautions were taken and Nielsen was thoroughly tested."

Not to go to deep in other direction of discussion… You quote sources in favour of Nielsen. I'll quote the opposite from Wikipedia:
 
"The psychical researcher Harry Price sat with Nielsen in Copenhagen with "unsatisfactory results."[5] Nielsen was also caught hiding his ectoplasm in his rectum.[6] In 1932, Johs Carstensen the leader of Nielsen's spiritualist circle wrote a pamphlet which exposed his tricks.[7] Nielsen continued to work as a medium until his death but was never considered credible again by people outside his small circle of influence. He published the book Solid Proofs of Survival in 1950.[8]”
 
So, who are we to believe? I know I stopped believing he had a genuine skill after the part with the rectum and ectoplasm  .

I think that the best way for a skeptic to argue would be to claim that the séance with the fire did not take place and that the case was made up later after they had gotten information about the fire in Copenhagen. Then all the veridical information about Emil Jensen would have to be explained with Indridi getting the information about Jensen from some unknown source and subconsciously remembering it, in other words cryptomnesia. Then the fact that the made up fire case involved the Jensen communciator while at the same time the Jensen communicator lived so close to the fire would have to be explained as an coincidence. I don't think that it's possible to rule this out with complete certainty, so for that reason I don't think the case is "perfect". However, I do think that a paranormal explanation is a much more likely explanation.

Yes, this could be a plausible scenario. Although, I believe that most probably Indridi was instructed by the Circle members and had associates that helped him with the tricks, at least in some of the occasions. We have a reason why would they act like that. Regarding the street where Jensen lived, I think that during his lifetime he changed his place of living in the city five or six times (can't remember correctly). I would say this raises the coincidence probabilities... 

You lean towards paranormal explanation; I think the opposite. And that is completely fine  

In the end, it is very hard to assess a case that happened more than a century ago. But it is interesting trying it. Perhaps one day a historian will find new material about Indridi that will introduce new facts… Who knows…

Regarding the street where Jensen lived, I think that during his lifetime he changed his place of living in the city five or six times (can't remember correctly). I would say this raises the coincidence probabilities...

Haraldsson lists all the places Jensen lived on page 218-219 of his "A Perfect Case?" paper. https://www.homepage-baukasten-dateien.d...ndridi.pdf From the age of eight until his death Jensen lived on adresses very close to the factory where the fire happened. So I don't think this raises the coincidence probabilities.