Free will and determinism

Nice!  Had no idea you felt this way.  Man did we all invest some time and thought in the linked thread on this topic.  Glad to see it at least put a dent in it.

Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to say that we here have had discussions that reached conclusions.   Actually, we probably have. For example, I think we all agree that epiphenomenalism is quite unlikely. What I meant was that there are such things as discussions that reach conclusions, more or less.

Thinking about it a bit more, I have to admit that I've changed my line of argument on this question. I used to say that the idea of libertarian free will is incoherent. Now I accept the idea and just ask now it works. I made this change because people argue that the method of making a free decision may lie in indeterminism, and so indeterminism is not simply randomness. I don't see how an indeterministic event can be anything other than arbitrary, but I gave up on that argument.

~~ Paul

Don't you think it's the job of the people claiming we have free will to provide the evidence (or proof, if it can be proven logically)? I mean, you can believe it as your default philosophy, but that is not evidence.

The argument about future explanations pertains just as much to idealism as to materialism. Consciousness is not explained.

~~ Paul

Pretty sure I've gone through my position re: Free Will in the 65 pages thread that's already been linked to?

Idealism just says the consciousness we experience is all there is.

Materialism is saying this "matter" (whatever that is) has no trace of consciousness but somehow produces said consciousness. Why Sam Harris says it's nonsensical.

Sweet Mother of Pearl, it's not a trick question.

So if you are willing to link back to the old thread, could you post a link to one of the good responses?

~~ Paul

All of my posts are good responses IMO.

We have some experience, but not the entire experience. I suppose if I really cogitate on a simple decision, I might see all the steps. But even then, do I really experience what happens between the moment I still have two choices and the next moment when I pick one? I don't think so.

We have plenty of discussions where there is a more-or-less satisfactory explanation. Here we have no explanation at all.

~~ Paul

I don't know if you've ever given a more-or-less satisfactory explanation that you parallel as a good explanation for free will.

Can you link to one of these good posts?

Even they thread a dangerous road, just look at how many criticize it for "panpsychism" and "not understanding correlation"

A lot of the materialist faithful will start attacking Tononi/Koch's positions for some reason or another but their dogma is crumbling just as Bertrand Russell predicted as noted in my signature.

Materialists dominated academia up until...2013 or so? I feel the landscape has changed so much so fast in a decade.

A long time ago I realised that philosophical argument could lead to wherever we like. All that is necessary is to set the appropriate initial set of assumptions.

Conversely, if after an immense amount of time and consideration, no satisfactory outcome can be reached, the natural conclusion is that it becomes necessary to alter the initial conditions.

Pretty sure I've gone through my position re: Free Will in the 65 pages thread that's already been linked to?

Idealism just says the consciousness we experience is all there is.

Materialism is saying this "matter" (whatever that is) has no trace of consciousness but somehow produces said consciousness. Why Sam Harris says it's nonsensical.

Yes, I understand that's what idealism says, but it would cool if some more details could be given. In particular, how does idealism imply free will? How does it escape determinism? If it just does these things by definition, I wish people would say that.

I think Harris says that he doesn't understand how consciousness can be the result of nonconscious brain function. I haven't heard him say the idea is nonsensical.

~~ Paul

I don't know if you've ever given a more-or-less satisfactory explanation that you parallel as a good explanation for free will.

Can you link to one of these good posts?

I don't understand the question. I have no explanation for the details of decision making. Or are you asking me to explain why it feels free? If that's your question, then my answer is because we don't experience the entire process, so it feels like there are free steps. A lack of experience is not going to be felt as deterministic. And, in my case, I don't think the decision really feels any more free than deterministic. I just don't experience the whole thing.

Also, I must admit, I couldn't go through that 65-page thread. All I know is that no explanation jumped out at me. And a lot of posts were spent telling me there had been a good explanation without summarizing it. And many other posts were spent suggesting that an explanation is actually impossible. And some were spent telling me that my question doesn't make sense, because I was using a word (e.g., method) that entailed determinism.

~~ Paul

Yes, I understand that's what idealism says, but it would cool if some more details could be given. In particular, how does idealism imply free will? How does it escape determinism? If it just does these things by definition, I wish people would say that.

I think Harris says that he doesn't understand how consciousness can be the result of nonconscious brain function. I haven't heard him say the idea is nonsensical.

~~ Paul

Idealism doesn't imply free will? Don't think I've ever said that. My point is the problem for Materialism is not equivalent to Idealism as the latter starts with something we already know we have -> Consciousness itself.

Even in materialism not sure why determinism is something to be escaped, given if all matter rests on the quantum level not clear where determinism is to be found.

Also, I must admit, I couldn't go through that 65-page thread.

Hard to see what a new conversation would bring then.

Better for you to pick someone like Tononi, read his papers & watch his Youtube videos. Maybe email him your "how" question and see what he thinks?