Dualism or idealist monism as the best model for survival after death data

You say... us lot (me included) insist NDE's are a real experience of an afterlife. Well of course, they could hardly be anything else.

I am actually more sure of Survival than having any knowledge of what that Survival is exactly like.

To ideally clarify this, what is most convincing about NDEs as evidence to me are:

- Veridical OOBEs, both the physical world seen by the OOBEr and the times a person's "subtle body" experiencing the OOBE is witnessed as an apparition.

- Communication of Anomalous Knowledge which includes learning of a previously unknown dead relative, learning of someone who was thought to be alive is actually dead, and other cases of that type.

- The incredibly limited state of the brain having said experiences.

The actual place descriptions and meetings with entities (gods, angels, etc) I think are more questionable, especially looking at the historical record. We'll probably have to wait to see it all for ourselves...

Have any of you even read Nancy Evans Bush 'Dancing Past The Dark'?

Some of it, though I could admittedly do with a refresher...

Some of it, though I could admittedly do with a refresher...

I read it years ago, Sci. Gave it away like I do (have done) with most of my books. From memory, she 'saw' some symbols like Yin and Yang (but not exactly that) which she found disturbing, not pleasant. I was none the wiser about why it occurs when I'd finished which is not surprising and I don't think we ever will be, but it got good reviews. I think the take on it was not to see them as necessarily a terrible thing, but that some 'positives' may be taken from them (negative NDE's)

I am actually more sure of Survival than having any knowledge of what that Survival is exactly like.

To ideally clarify this, what is most convincing about NDEs as evidence to me are:

- Veridical OOBEs, both the physical world seen by the OOBEr and the times a person's "subtle body" experiencing the OOBE is witnessed as an apparition.

- Communication of Anomalous Knowledge which includes learning of a previously unknown dead relative, learning of someone who was thought to be alive is actually dead, and other cases of that type.

- The incredibly limited state of the brain having said experiences.

The actual place descriptions and meetings with entities (gods, angels, etc) I think are more questionable, especially looking at the historical record. We'll probably have to wait to see it all for ourselves...

All of which are supportive of experience arising from what we share.

All the anomalous stuff being clues that we're not isolated individuals in a separate world at all... but that our experience comes into being through what [appears to us] to be the matching patterns that connect us.

This is far more important to us now, than waiting for what comes next...

We are absolutely stuck within the result (experience), and peering out from within trying to understand. Most everyone is stuck in the lie we are taught, that we are isolated individuals in a separate world.

The challenge is whether we can rise up and successfully digest this truth, or whether we fail and the truth instead consumes us.

Again, I'm not a bit religious, but the deep wisdom hidden within the Gospel of Thomas addresses this exact issue:

(7*) Jesus said, "Blessed is the lion which becomes man when consumed by man; and cursed is the man whom the lion consumes, and the lion becomes man."

*Lambdin Translation.

All of which are supportive of experience arising from what we share.

All the anomalous stuff being clues that we're not isolated individuals in a separate world at all... but that our experience comes into being through what [appears to us] to be the matching patterns that connect us.

This is far more important to us now, than waiting for what comes next...

We are absolutely stuck within the result (experience), and peering out from within trying to understand. Most everyone is stuck in the lie we are taught, that we are isolated individuals in a separate world.

The challenge is whether we can rise up and successfully digest this truth, or whether we fail and the truth instead consumes us.

Again, I'm not a bit religious, but the deep wisdom hidden within the Gospel of Thomas addresses this exact issue:

(7*) Jesus said, "Blessed is the lion which becomes man when consumed by man; and cursed is the man whom the lion consumes, and the lion becomes man."

*Lambdin Translation.

Yeah I'm not adamantly opposed to alternative explanations regarding paranormal evidence, why I have an appreciation for your position. Also prior to even joining Skeptiko I've long appreciated the Gospel of Thomas and its message that the Kingdom of God is already spread across the world but we are blind to this call to make the world better rather than just wait for the next life.

As such I do agree that the promise of the next life has been abused by religious powers across the globe throughout history, though I do also think this idea of God + soul + afterlife has had important inspiration for many civil rights movements such as Abolition. Chomsky, himself an atheist, notes the value of the idea that humans share the same kind of soul as inspiring the fight against slavery.

For myself the philosophy I've read + NDEs / Mediumship / Apparitions / CORTs / Savants / Terminal Lucidity / Dreams of the Dead / etc have made me accept Survival.

I realize this does not mean Survival is conclusive, and some other explanation may be provided but it seems to me that there is some kind of personal afterlife.

I've been Googling nonduality and near-death experiences and came up with this very interesting find:

It's a full, 300+ page doctoral thesis (2021) by Monika J. Mandoki in Canada called Are Near-Death Experiences Veridical? A Philosophical Inquiry that is fully available to read as well as downloadable.

It's a study of veridicality in NDEs in the light of idealism. I've just perused it and it appears to have loads of interesting commentary and analysis that relate directly to this thread. At first glance, she seems to have keen insights into the key features of NDEs and how they fit or don't fit various idealist philosophies.

Here's the abstract:


She seems very knowledgeable, in detail, about the the field of NDE research, and she's got great analysis in the last section of several idealist philosophies, from ancient times (Advaita Vedanta, Plotinus) to recent/contemporary idealists that I wasn't aware of, like John Foster and Imants Baruss (her thesis supervisor). (No mention of Bernardo .)

Here's just a sample:


I'd say this sounds like a key read even for committed dualists who are interested in studying philosophical approaches to NDEs.

Some of Mandoki's thesis is interesting ... As far as I can tell she is saying that trying to prove NDEs are real by using physical evidence is impossible because the experiencer has to live to tell the tale in which case the materialist can always say that the experience was produced by living matter.

Mandoki says that materialists assume materialism is a superior point of view so it is fair to take that position, but actually there are no valid grounds to believe materialism is superior to other possibilities. You can read the thesis to see why she said this, she summarizes it this way:

First, the materialists often treat the rise of materialism in history as an ahistorical fact, which is not the case. Second, they often rely on scientific facts to make the case for materialism, but ignore the difference between science and materialism when making this case. Third, they overlook the relationship between the evidence and the evaluator of the evidence. Finally, they stay silent about the bias epistemic peers show when handling the evidence.

I have written about how materialism is undermined 
here
https://sites.google.com/site/chs4o8pt/s...x4y6kvf0cq
and here
https://sites.google.com/site/chs4o8pt/s...tce5gsicfv


Mandoki concludes that if materialism is not a better point of view, in that case idealism is superior to dualism and materialism because it is the most parsimonious.

Some of Mandoki's thesis is interesting ... As far as I can tell she is saying that trying to prove NDEs are real by using physical evidence is impossible because the experiencer has to live to tell the tale in which case the materialist can always say that the experience was produced by living matter.

Mandoki says that materialists assume materialism is a superior point of view so it is fair to take that position, but actually there are no valid grounds to believe materialism is superior to other possibilities. You can read the thesis to see why she said this, she summarizes it this way:


I have written about how materialism is undermined 
here
https://sites.google.com/site/chs4o8pt/s...x4y6kvf0cq
and here
https://sites.google.com/site/chs4o8pt/s...tce5gsicfv


Mandoki concludes that if materialism is not a better point of view, in that case idealism is superior to dualism and materialism because it is the most parsimonious.

This seems to be going over old ground. I don't have much patience for Mandoki's theory. I think I need only repeat my post from that thread. From https://psiencequest.net/forums/thread-d...8#pid48018 :

"This doctoral thesis looks at least on the surface to be an incredible flight of academic arrogance. Mandoki apparently is gratuitously assuming that only philosophy can decide the veridicality of NDEs, and inherently dismisses and ignores the painstaking, careful and thorough actual physical investigations by many NDE researchers over the years that have conclusively verified that many elements in NDE accounts closely correspond with what actually happened in the physical world, while the NDEer was completely incapacitated, often even with a nonfunctioning physical brain. Information about the actions and identities of the doctors treating the NDEer's body (and other goings-on) that was completely unavailable to the NDEers through their normal senses. And this is also the case for other areas of NDEs, such as Mandoki's inherent dismissal of the similarly researched and investigated NDEer accounts of having met and communicated with the spirits of deceased loved ones that they (the NDEers) didn't know had passed.

This research and these investigations in themselves prove the veridicality (that is, the truth or the correspondence with reality) of many NDEs. We don't need Idealist philosophy to decide on the veridicality of NDEs - just careful investigation in the physical world."

The academic paper by Mandoki appears to ignore the best cases of NDE veridicality, such as the Pam Reynolds case. Cardiologist Michael Sabom extensively investigated the case, and neurosurgeon Robert Spetzler (who actually performed the operation) could testify to that. They believe the combination of anesthesia and the sluggish or nonexistent brain activity caused by hypothermia meant that Reynolds could not form or retain memories for a significant part of the operation. At the very least, Sabom says, Reynolds' story raises the high possibility that consciousness can function even when the brain is offline.

"Is there some type of awareness that occurs from a nonfunctional, physical brain?" Sabom asks. "And if there is, does that mean that there's a soul or spirit?"

The following is more information from my files on the Pam Reynolds case. It's just the tip of the iceberg, considering all the cases.

There are the extraordinary confirmed veridical elements of Reynolds' experience, in particular her apparently sighted perception of the unusually shaped Midas Rex bone saw. In the case of the Midas Rex operating tool, surgeon Spetzler testified that Reynolds' description was remarkably accurate, and that at the time she was under EEG burst suppression (a clear sign that the brain is not active but in a state of deep unconsciousness), which is incompatible with anaesthetic awareness.

Another feature: Reynolds "saw" her body jump twice when during the rescusitation after the excision of the aneurism the surgeons had to administer two shocks to clear the ventricular fibrillation her heart had gone into. So Reynolds was somehow aware during cardiac arrest and an additional hypothermic coma, still full of barbiturates and no auditory brainstem response, indicating complete absence of brain activity. It is not remotely reasonable to suggest that she could have had normal brain-bound consciousness in that state.

I would add that to use an old saying, the Devil is in the details.

Details of over 100 investigated and confirmed veridical NDE cases are exhausively covered in the well-known compilation The Self Does Not Die by Rivas, Dirven, and Smit (https://www.amazon.com/Self-Does-Not-Die...0997560800 ). They collectively testify to the apparent separation of the soul or spirit from the physical body during NDEs and their observation of later confirmed details in both the physical and spiritual realms during their temporary experiences out of body. Experiences that can be best explained by the interactive dualism model. One of the best examples is the following, in summary:

Pam Reynolds Lowery, from Atlanta, Georgia, was an American singer-songwriter who, in the late 80s or early 90s, went to her physician with a complaint that she was experiencing severe dizziness, loss of speech, and difficulty in moving parts of her body. She was subsequently referred to a neurologist, who, after a CAT scan, revealed that she had a large aneurysm in her brain, very close to the brain stem, affecting her overall abilities. Because of the aneurysm’s position and its sheer size, Pam was told that she might not survive an operation. In 1991 it was decided to perform a rare and complex operation using special techniques, to tryto safely excise the aneurism.

Dr. Robert F. Spetzler, a neurosurgeon in Phoenix, Arizona, performed a rare procedure known as the hypothermic cardiac arrest while simultaneously removing the aneurysm. During the operation, Pam’s body temperature was kept at 60°F, her eyes were taped shut, the blood from her head had been entirely drained, and small plugs were placed in her ears emitting a loud clicking sound used to monitor brain activity and confirm flatline. This generated noise was loud enough to drown out ny awareness of voices in the operating room, aside from the fact that Reynolds was completely out anyway from (first) the general anaesthetics, and then from the hypothermic cardiac arrest. Clinically, she was dead during the major part of the operation. And yet, when she woke up, Pam could describe everything that happened in the operating room with eerily accurate detail.

Pam, 35, reported that sometime during the operation, she heard a sound that seemed to pull her out of her physical body and allowed her to float in the air above so that she could see what was going on. She said she felt more aware and that her eyesight was clearer than ever, but the strangest part for her was not seeing the unfamiliar instruments being used on her (which she did, in particular the special Midas Rex bone saw used by Spetzler); it was witnessing her deceased relatives. According to Pam, even though she didn’t want to return, her uncle brought her back to her body and pushed her inside once again.

It would be interesting to find out how Mandoki would explain this case (edit: using idealism as the model), not even considering the multiplicity of cases in The Self Does Not Die.

It would be interesting to find out how Mandoki would explain this case (not even considering the multiplicity of cases in The Self Does Not Die).

I don't understand your point here?

She explicitly notes that she thinks materialism is false. She covers a variety of alternatives such as McTaggart's idea that souls are eternally incarnating into different lives.

Is your point of contention that she is preferring Idealism to Dualism?

I don't understand your point here?

She explicitly notes that she thinks materialism is false. She covers a variety of alternatives such as McTaggart's idea that souls are eternally incarnating into different lives.

Is your point of contention that she is preferring Idealism to Dualism?

Yes

Yes

Isn't this almost semantics though?

I mean she would agree with you that the cases in Self Does Not Die should be taken seriously. Is the contention that you see Idealism as erasing individual identity which only applies to a sub-category of Idealism?

Because in the thesis, or at least what I recall of it, she definitely offers the option that the soul is immortal and everlasting.