Commentary thread for tim's "NDE's" thread

Thanks for those Tim. I enjoyed reading them.

I'm glad you liked them, Obiwan !

In 1976, Lynne H had a veridical near death experience when her heart stopped during the time she was trying to give birth to a daughter. Apparently, the baby's head was quite large and the child didn't make an appearance until her mother was surgically assisted (shall we say).  

I asked her if she would be willing to provide more details, after she posted a short summary of her experience in a comments section on YouTube. She kindly agreed and provided some very interesting insights/perceptions on what dying is actually like. It seems to me that if one accepts testimonies like this as being sincere and honest accounts, then it's looking more and more likely (arguably) that our physical bodies may be comparable to a vehicle, rather than being solely our real selves.   

Hello. Thank you for your message. Here goes: It was 21 January 1976 when I was admitted to hospital because I was in labour with my first child. On arrival I was put on a monitor and left in a room on my own. Everyone went home and I was left with a trainee midwife who kept looking at the printout every couple of hours and then leaving to ask someone what it meant. I had arrived at 4pm when my contractions were every 5 minutes. 

By 9pm they were (occurring) every three minutes. It was painfully long and slow. By 11pm I was wanting to push. For four hours I pushed and pushed. I was in severe distress and extremely exhausted. I told the midwife time and time again that the head was too big. She said it is a 6lb baby and I should have no trouble giving birth. Eventually she gave in at 2.45am. She cut me and the baby shot out like a bullet. 

They just caught her before she fell off the end of the table. She had a huge head and weighed 8lb.  I tore inside and out and lost a lot of blood. I went into immediate shock and my heart stopped beating. It was pandemonium. A nurse rushed in to pump my heart (CPR).  Someone else rushed in with frozen blood and put it on the radiator. A junior doctor was reading my notes in a panic. He was just turning pages and pacing (around). He just didn’t know what to do. 

Another nurse yelled for a mask. She couldn’t give me oxygen because the mask was missing the oxygen tube. A doctor asked for a mobile x-ray machine to see if it was an embolism. Then he asked a nurse to empty my bladder. (After she accomplished that) She threw the contents away and the doctor went mad at her because he had wanted a sample of urine. A female doctor started shouting at me saying "wake up"! 

How do I know all this? (Because) I watched it ! The pain after giving birth was so bad that I decided to leave my body. I knew I was not supposed to, but I said (thought), (I'll do it) just for a minute to get away from the pain. I sat up (in spirit or consciousness) and the top half of my spirit was at the head and my legs were still inside (the physical body). I was being warned in my (spiritual consciousness) "no more", but I ignored it and headed for the ceiling. I was going backwards and there was a kind of misty tunnel which I went up. 

I landed on something firm, but I was (also) in a doorway looking out at the mist. Someone was behind me stopping me from going further. I imaged it to be Jesus due to the compassion that flowed from him. He said telepathically, "What do you want to do?" I said I wanted to stay. He said, "What about your daughter?" I immediately got a picture of her life without me. I saw my husband in a sports car with a gold watch on his wrist, driving west down a straight motorway to go visit his daughter. When he got there his elderly parents were sitting on a sofa, and the baby was sitting on the floor looking dreadfully unhappy. 

I immediately decided I would go back. While out of my body I had no negativity at all. I was pure compassion. I could only think of what was best for others. At that moment there was a wave of approval ( from the beings) I then realised there were hundreds of angels behind the man. They were flapping their wings and it sounded like applause. I was immediately rushed back to my body, and I have to say it was the worst experience of my life. Getting back inside the body was awful. 

I was overcome by pain as I slid in, and it felt as though I was too big to fit. It was like being squeezed into an iron lung. I immediately regretted my decision. I was so depressed. I was sewn up and that was awful too. The pain was as bad as the labour. I suffered for months and months with the effects of the tearing. I was unconscious for some time. When I woke up my husband was by my bed. I was in intensive care. He had left the hospital and was phoned immediately to come back as "your wife is dying". He looked shocked but was pleased to see me coming round. I was too weak to even wash myself and the nurses had to do it. 

After some time, I went onto a ward and I could finally meet my daughter. Before I was discharged a consultant came to see me. I asked him what happened. He said, "Oh you lost some blood so we had to give you a transfusion". Everything is okay now, though". 

That was a lie. The blood loss was minimal. He never mentioned my heart stopping, being resuscitated, the pandemonium. As you can imagine, I try to stay away from hospitals and doctors now. I don't trust them at all. 

Thanks, Lynne !  When you were 'leaving' your body, is this something that you expected to happen ? And when it did happen, can you recall what it felt like (to leave your physical body behind) ?  Did you feel that you were still entirely yourself (your whole thinking self) just maybe lighter or more free, perhaps ? How would you describe it ?

Hiya. Well once I was suffering, it was as if my body allowed my spirit to take a break. The minute the top half of me (the spirit me or consciousness whatever it was) was out, I knew everything. I just knew that if I slid out, I would not be popular (because I was then dying on them--the nurses etc), but I just wanted some respite. Once out, it was bliss ! I had no body, but it was as if I was exactly the same. The difference was the fact that I knew things and could communicate telepathically. It was all so right. I did not want to go back. It was sheer bliss out there. 

I was obviously being controlled in some way because of the way that "master" (Jesus?) blocked me from going too far. I knew I could (just) think something and it would happen, but he read my mind and gently stopped me. He didn't tell me anything, just got me to see what would happen if I stayed (there). I saw such clear pictures. Because you are total compassion when not in a body, you only make decisions that are positive. 

Once in the body again, I was full of pain, hurt, depression, fear - all the negative emotions that are obviously only part of the body and not the spirit. The bit I didn't say was that, not long afterward my husband's parents moved to Wales. We used to drive down the M4 to visit them. I soon realised this was the motorway (I'd seen) and the house they bought was the one I saw. Even the carpet was the same. It was so spooky to realise this, at a later date. Seeing my daughter in this house was a premonition. However, if I had not been here, my daughter would only see her father now and again.

Can I just press you a little bit more with respect to when you left your body ?  How did you actually know you could do that (leave your body ) in the first place ? Was it just obvious or did it become obvious ?

I see what you mean now.  What happened is that I was dying and my (spiritual) body started to leave.  Once my (spiritual) head started to rise I suddenly knew everything.  I knew I must not leave entirely.  Sitting up was (a) relieving (of) the pain while they pumped my heart.  However, once you are out, the desire is to leave.  Which I did.  If my heart hadn't stopped, I don't think I would know how to leave (my body), even if I wanted to.  It is obviously the first thing the spirit does as you die, it starts to leave the body.  As I said, as soon as my head 'left', I knew things.  I knew not to leave entirely but I ignored that.  It was just so pain-free and peaceful out of the body.

No-one made me come back.  It was my choice.  However, you become so unselfish and pure when you are not in the body that you only make the best decisions.  The child was the important thing which overrode my feelings.  I desperately wished I hadn't decided to come back, once I was actually back in the body, but that is because all the negative emotions were back.  I have been constantly shocked at how toxic the body must be, to feel so different when you are in it, to how you feel when you are out of it !

Thanks for those interesting details ! The bit I'm particularly curious about is this >  "Once my head started to rise ". What you are actually describing here is of course impossible !  Your head is lying on a hospital gurney. It can't rise unless the nurse lifts it up, do you see what I mean?  So you are basically describing "something else" leaving your physical head ...let's say your mind (your self, whatever you want to call it).  So, is that what you are saying ?   

Sorry, what I meant was that my 'spirit head' rose out of my actual head. This happens when you die. At once I could sense and see everything spiritually. As the rest of me rose up, I could watch what was going on. 

Thinking that Lynne had prior expectations because of her informing me this is what happens when you die, I asked her if she therefore did have them (prior expectations) ?   

No ! I had no idea (that this would happen). I tried to tell my husband about it, once I was(back) home, but the look on his face made me think he thought I was mad. I immediately clammed up and never told another soul. Then my boss, who is a nurse, brought the subject up once, and I told her my story (in response). She believed me and was fascinated. She was the only person I ever told. 

Unfortunately, she told a reporter friend of hers who was interested in this stuff. I received a phone call from her so I told her the basics. Next thing I am in the Daily Express! Very disconcerting that was. Still didn't tell anyone else though. I don't usually read about other people's experiences now, because the two I read were nothing like mine. I decided everyone must have their own experience and not all are necessarily the same.

Many thanks to Lynne H ! 

Very interesting thanks Tim.

Thanks, Obiwan ! It seems to me that dying is something that we never actually experience. That's how I honestly feel about it, now. Of course I'm not suggesting that you would agree with that, or anyone else. Just my thoughts.

Thanks, Obiwan ! It seems to me that dying is something that we never actually experience. That's how I honestly feel about it, now. Of course I'm not suggesting that you would agree with that, or anyone else. Just my thoughts.

That would be nice lol
There definitely seems to be a lot of evidence that suggests it sometimes happens without us realising it.

This doctor apparently has had a similar experience to Dr Mary Neale. I don't know anything about it and have no assumptions one way or the other. Presumably we will get to hear more about it soon.  

https://isgo.iands.org/webinar/dallas-ft...f-iands-2/

In 2018, Dr. Peter Cummings was a husband, father and board-certified neuropathologist who spent his days teaching neuroanatomy and neurobiology at a prestigious medical school in  Boston. As an atheist, thoughts of God and spirit rarely crossed his mind.

Then he and his family went on a white-water rafting trip in Costa Rica, where Peter fell into a Class IV rapid and drowned. But during the eight minutes his Apple Watch showed him to be in cardiac arrest, he had an extraordinary experience of peace, light, and love, watching from above as his wife and son were rescued from the rapids, events that were later verified. 

Dr. Cummings returned from his near- death experience with an altered experience of time, living in a perpetual present with no sense of past or future and set out to discover the truth about what he had seen and felt. Was it real, or a trick of his dying brain? What he found contradicted everything his training as a brain scientist had taught him and left him convinced that the mind, the afterlife, and yes, even God, are real. His upcoming book [i]Forever Now[/i] is the surprising, scientifically rigorous, deeply moving story of his quest for understanding.

Peter Cummings, MD is a triple board certified physician specializing in neuropathology and forensic pathology. He earned his bachelor’s degree from the University of Maine in Orono and a masters degree in pathology from Dalhousie University in Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada. He attended the Royal College of Surgeons in Dublin Ireland, graduating medical school with honors. 

He completed his residency in anatomic pathology and his fellowship in neuropathology at the University of Virginia. He is an award winning educator and best selling author. He has been accepted as a medical expert in the courts of 27 states and 7 different countries.
 

Further to the previous post, I purchased the IANDS video of the recent webinar with Dr Peter Cummings. Unfortunately, as much as I would like to post it here so that members can see it, I don't think I'm legally allowed to, either of course by IANDS or the admin of this forum. (if that is incorrect please advise)

However, I can (as far as I know) post a summary which will be accurate without being verbatim. Dr Cummings has impeccable credentials, triple board certified in brain pathology and neuro pathology/neuroscience which means he's undertaken a lot of extra training to compliment his initial graduation from medical school etc. He notably retrospectively worked on JFK's autopsy report trying to determine from which direction the shot(s) originated from, apparently.

Although he was born and raised (partially) Catholic, he described himself previously as an atheist/materialist and on a good day, maybe agnostic at best. There was no soul and the brain was responsible for all experience, period. 

(Just to add for proponents, just be aware as, I'm sure you are, that Cummings' medical expertise/acumen in brain pathology will make not "one iota" of difference to the debate, from the point of view of sceptics). 

However, it can't be seriously denied that he is at least better qualified than most people, even medics, to comment, being a recognised 'brain expert' and also having just had an experience that contradicted everything he thought he knew about the brain (where have we heard that before lol) :

His wife was an outdoor sports enthusiast and had booked a trip to Costa Rica, white water rafting. They had to cover thirty miles of river in two days (of rafting) and during one particularly difficult stretch of torrential water, the raft overturned and they all fell in. Cummings (apparently) doesn't like water (he only learnt to swim quite late in life) and eventually got caught up in a hydraulic (a powerful 'suction downwards' from a spinning vortex of water). The order of this is more convoluted but for brevity ...

...he was unable to breathe but eventually he went back up again and managed to reach a raft (another raft). Unfortunately, a paddle came down on his head nearly taking his face off (he said) and sent him back down under water again, where he slammed into a large rock which he could see in detail (shortened). He realised he was going to die but felt strangely calm and peaceful and thought "this isn't bad at all". Everything was getting brighter...

He then found himself viewing everything from above (out of the water). Not with "eyes" like the eyes in his head, but as if he was somehow 'over' the whole scene. He could see his wife being rescued (in detail) and also his twelve year old son hanging over the side of a raft. This was something he couldn't possibly have seen, as he was underwater, but he was later able to verify that all the details were correct (he claims).

Happy and contented that they were going to be okay, Cummings was now ready to go. He also reported having a vision of his son's future which additionally assured him that his 'job' here was done and he could die. Furthermore, he saw that one of his family had a serious problem/difficulties that he didn't know anything about previously. 

As is always the case with the NDE's we hear about, he came back, bobbing up to the surface (somehow) and was himself also rescued. Coincidental to his time under water where he couldn't breathe (obviously), he mentioned that his Apple watch informed him (registered) that his heart had appeared to stop for eight minutes, though he can't be certain that it actually did. It may have malfunctioned he said, but it never has before. 

All in all it was what might term more of a 'superficial' or the first stage of an NDE, but an NDE nonetheless which has changed his life. He said he's examined the arguments, the sceptical proposals/objections etc and has come to the conclusion that he cannot explain how he was able to see these events from above. He's also aware that cynical sceptics will say he's being unscientific (basically) but is not worried by that, and is content to let them believe what they want to. 

He also mentioned that he doesn't understand why well documented veridical NDE/OBE reports cannot be taken seriously, although he is aware that sceptics do not. 

Some more to follow

My near-death experience

Rafting a river in Costa Rica, I was swept underwater by a powerful current and drowned. Dying during a traumatic experience is a common claim made by people who have had near-death experiences (NDEs), but my experience differs in a very important way. I was wearing my Apple Watch, which continually monitors my heart rate. During the time I was underwater and having my NDE, my watch indicated that for more than 8 minutes, I had no heartbeat. The watch was not malfunctioning, because once I pulled myself out of the water and returned to a more normal state of consciousness, the watch recorded my heart rate. 
 
Bottom line: I was in cardiac arrest, and yet while I was, I had the most extraordinary experience of my life.

 https://www.petercummingsmd.com/

Dr Cummings has written a book about his experience. I make no judgement about that but I would anticipate that that in itself may draw some criticism from sceptics.  

I find his peaked interest in NDE research to be quite inspiring. He apparently took the Greyson test and scored a 16, indicative of a 'transcendental component'. His reflection on how he changed his mind was powerful too:

However, now, as I began researching my own NDE, I found that orthodoxy shaken. I'm a neuroscientist, yet I could find no compelling evidence to support the idea that either neural activity, low oxygen levels, or any other physiological factors could have created the hyper-real, logically consistent, veridical (truthful and objectively verifiable) experience I'd had. Plus, I had been in cardiac arrest for more than eight minutes! Within about two minutes of my heart stopping, my brain should not have been able to produce a coherent conscious experience of any kind. Yet I had one.

I find his peaked interest in NDE research to be quite inspiring. He apparently took the Greyson test and scored a 16, indicative of a 'transcendental component'. His reflection on how he changed his mind was powerful too:

Personally, I'm sort of reserving judgement but what I think isn't important, it's his experience and we either accept what he's telling us or reject it, I guess. I see no reason to think he would be making anything up, though; in the video when he was telling the story, particularly the bit where he was under water, he became very emotional and perspired visibly. 

And whether or not his heart stopped (as he said) is not actually that important, it's the "observing" of events he couldn't possibly have seen, if he is telling us the truth and I have no reason to suspect otherwise. 

What I find intriguing and very significant is that he is an undoubted expert on the brain and it's pathology, but he doesn't accept that he's been tricked/fooled by his own.  

If anyone is interested, there are quite few of these NDE's from drowning in rapids. Googling Diane Goble near death experience will bring up her story which although is a much deeper NDE, the beginning is quite similar.