(2017-09-21, 01:42 PM)Laird Wrote: [ -> ]I guess we could compare the creativity of the best human artists in waking consciousness to the creativity of whatever-it-is that creates dreams. For me, there's no comparison. Dreams are far and above any "ordinary" human creativity.
Well I've never had a dream with the scope of a Shakespeare play to give only one example. Can you explain more about how the brains capacity to create dreams would relate to human artistic output?
(2017-09-21, 01:53 PM)chuck Wrote: [ -> ]Well I've never had a dream with the scope of a Shakespeare play to give only one example. Can you explain more about how the brains capacity to create dreams would relate to human artistic output?
Probably not without entering you into my dreamworld. I know that's probably a copout but the sort of dreams of which I'm thinking aren't very amenable to being put into words, and sometimes not even into waking logic. I think when you transcend human logic in a dream and enter some sort of realm of paralogic - something that I have never seen a human artist do, and can't even imagine how it would be done - you can be pretty sure that you're not dealing with an ordinary, personal creativity.
(2017-09-21, 01:27 PM)jkmac Wrote: [ -> ]This is one of the reasons I don't believe the brain creates this sort of dream imagery. There is simply no way the brain is powerful enough to design, create, edit, and render this stuff, in completely accurate detail, indistinguishable from "real life", all in instant reaction to choices I am constantly making. Sorry folks,,, the physical brain is just not THAT powerful.
Well, if (hypothetically speaking) the brain is devoting 95% of its capacity (figure stated at random) in order to generate a scene, how much capacity remains in order to verify whether or not the scene has completely accurate detail, indistinguishable from real-life? And equally, if a discrepancy starts to appear, because the attention is concentrated on one detail, the scene generating mechanism can stop producing details elsewhere, where it doesn't matter, and produce them right at the point where it is needed.
Certainly if the same mechanism was both generating and validating, I don't see any way out of this.
For example. Suppose one was writing a computer program to perform some task, but had used an incorrect algorithm which generates the wrong results. Then the programmer writes a second program to verify the results, using the same incorrect algorithm. Everything would appear to be perfect.
(2017-09-21, 01:58 PM)Laird Wrote: [ -> ]Probably not without entering you into my dreamworld. I know that's probably a copout but the sort of dreams of which I'm thinking aren't very amenable to being put into words, and sometimes not even into waking logic. I think when you transcend human logic in a dream and enter some sort of realm of paralogic - something that I have never seen a human artist do, and can't even imagine how it would be done - you can be pretty sure that you're not dealing with an ordinary, personal creativity.
Sounds reasonable. Thanks.
(2017-09-21, 01:58 PM)Brian Wrote: [ -> ]We don't realize how subconsciously creative we are. We are totally responsible for the creation of the various realities we live in. Who is the master who makes the grass green?
God?
I guess I see our personal consciousnesses as connected to higher (and lower) consciousness, which, when we sleep, "help us" with our creative dreaming. Some dreams - sure, they're mostly our minds "working things through". Many, though, are due to that deeper connection with consciousnesses beyond us. Much as I'd like to give props to my personal creativity, many of my dreams are just too far beyond to do that.
(2017-09-21, 01:39 PM)chuck Wrote: [ -> ]I can certainly understand why you may believe that. For me there just isn't enough evidence one way or the other. Perhaps the brain really is that powerful. How would we really know?
We know because we have several thousand years of historical information, and a couple hundred years of experimental experience with what the brain can do, and nothing has ever uncovered this sort of thing.
We also have some knowledge of what amount of processing power it takes to do this sort of thing from VR development work, and we have guesses as to the processing power of the brain, which is how are able to predict when computers will exceed the brain's power.
Proof? No way.
But just a wild guess? No.
(2017-09-21, 01:58 PM)Brian Wrote: [ -> ]We don't realize how subconsciously creative we are. We are totally responsible for the creation of the various realities we live in. Who is the master who makes the grass green?
The real question is: where does the subconscious reside?
(2017-09-21, 02:15 PM)jkmac Wrote: [ -> ]The real question is: where does the subconscious reside?
Yes! And: can we really identify with it as "a part of us" or is it more like "something connected to us which at the same time isn't ours in a personal sense"?
(2017-09-21, 01:27 PM)jkmac Wrote: [ -> ]For myself though: I see shots where I'm shown in the scene, and some where I'm in 1st person. I see reverse angle shots showing me and others react to something. I see wide angle and zoom. And panning shots. And even action shots where perspective changes multiple times during a shot, as if this was carefully edited.
One particular sequence from a lucid dream is amazing: I rise out of a seat in and old fashioned steam train. I fly along above the train, in and out of the smoke from the locomotive. Then I watch the train go down the tracks from a low perspective, as if I'm flying in a in a valley below, looking up and to the left. Then I fly beside the train looking away from the train at a forest, and see the accurate perspective of closer trees moving ahead relative to the farther away trees. Then I fly THROUGH the trees and feel a tingling as my body interacts with the material of the tree.
It was all totally seamless, and real-time as I decided what to do next.
This is one of the reasons I don't believe the brain creates this sort of dream imagery. There is simply no way the brain is powerful enough to design, create, edit, and render this stuff, in completely accurate detail, indistinguishable from "real life", all in instant reaction to choices I am constantly making. Sorry folks,,, the physical brain is just not THAT powerful.
Also please keep in mind: I was completely lucid during this experience, so I was experiencing the standard conscious alertness, interior dialog, and cognitive thinking skills, while the scene is being created and rendered.
(2017-09-21, 02:14 PM)jkmac Wrote: [ -> ]We know because we have several thousand years of historical information, and a couple hundred years of experimental experience with what the brain can do, and nothing has ever uncovered this sort of thing.
We also have some knowledge of what amount of processing power it takes to do this sort of thing from VR development work, and we have guesses as to the processing power of the brain, which is how are able to predict when computers will exceed the brain's power.
Proof? No way.
But just a wild guess? No.
But surely the brain plays some part in dreaming.