(2021-10-24, 07:24 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: [ -> ]I can't tell for sure but this doesn't seem like an apology to Maaneli...
Another round of classic Steve - jump into the thread with insults about proponents, has to confront facts about his own flaws, tries to make it seem the people criticizing him are at fault.
As I said, "you" do not listen.
Maybe this helps? Is not the one really being fooled the new born infant? The illusion of self awareness sneaks up on this patsy slowly in the first months of life. Its hyperplastic sensory system hypnotised by its rich new environment and experiences.
It never stood a chance.
(2021-10-24, 07:44 PM)malf Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe this helps? Is not the one really being fooled the new born infant? The illusion of self awareness sneaks up on this patsy slowly in the first months of life. Its hyperplastic sensory system hypnotised by its rich new environment.
It never stood a chance.
Isn't it weird that kids often talk about themselves in the third person when they first learn to talk?
Almost as if they have figured out the category 'person' but do not yet see themselves as a special case of that category.
(2021-10-24, 03:48 PM)tim Wrote: [ -> ]Just to add, I'm not a neuroscientist or expert in any way, nor do I claim to be. The information is there for anyone to look at if they choose to. I always try to make sure I don't post anything without a good basis for doing so. Thanks for the discussion !
No problem. I didn't make any assumptions about your background.
Your argument doesn't depend on you being an expert.
Just real mudslinging fun isn't it.
Saying consciousness is an illusion because it's a construction after the fact doesn't seem to explain anything at all, and even seems like a poor use of the word illusion. As with most illusionist theories of consciousness it merely kicks the can down the road. Okay, it's an illusion, now you still have to explain it, and the question of asking who is experiencing the illusion if consciousness is an illusion is a legitimate question.
Not to mention the implications some forms of illusionism can bring. It is a heavy ask already to deny felt experience as not actually existing. It is even more to say that you don't actually experience pain, you just THINK you experience pain.
(2021-10-24, 11:36 PM)Smaw Wrote: [ -> ]Just real mudslinging fun isn't it.
Saying consciousness is an illusion because it's a construction after the fact doesn't seem to explain anything at all, and even seems like a poor use of the word illusion. As with most illusionist theories of consciousness it merely kicks the can down the road. Okay, it's an illusion, now you still have to explain it, and the question of asking who is experiencing the illusion if consciousness is an illusion is a legitimate question.
Not to mention the implications some forms of illusionism can bring. It is a heavy ask already to deny felt experience as not actually existing. It is even more to say that you don't actually experience pain, you just THINK you experience pain.
This can has been kicked since the earliest civilisations and we haven’t moved very far down the road.
Reset your expectations to avoid disappointment.
(2021-10-25, 12:53 AM)malf Wrote: [ -> ]This can has been kicked since the earliest civilisations and we haven’t moved very far down the road.
Reset your expectations to avoid disappointment.
What's disappointing is asking me to take a position on belief that eventually, maybe, an answer will be conjured up that agrees with one position rather than the number of others that have been proposed.
Not all forms of ilusionism involved can kicking, but even the ones that don't have fair arguments against them. Certainly not a popular position, especially among physicalist philosophers of the mind.
(2021-10-25, 01:11 AM)Smaw Wrote: [ -> ]What's disappointing is asking me to take a position on belief that eventually, maybe, an answer will be conjured up that agrees with one position rather than the number of others that have been proposed.
Not all forms of ilusionism involved can kicking, but even the ones that don't have fair arguments against them. Certainly not a popular position, especially among physicalist philosophers of the mind.
Check my record. I recommend leaving all positions on the table.
(2021-10-25, 02:25 AM)malf Wrote: [ -> ]Check my record. I recommend leaving all positions on the table.
Of course, but like you might say towards parapsychology, just because an idea is left on the table doesn't mean it's supported by evidence, argument or at all likely.