Psience Quest

(2018-09-19, 11:54 PM)Steve001 Wrote: [ -> ]You didn't explicitly. But the meaningfulness of life after death ultimately in the Judaeo/Christian traditions including Islam (which are perhaps the most widespread influences) indicates it's someplace people look forward to going home to. If your consciousness after death experiences nothing more than a continuation of the here and now what's the point?

Stupid you say. The thoughts you think from wholecloth aren't. Sometimes Tim I don't think you truly understand the basis of your positions.

Your question is not phrased very well. Do you mean what is the point of (a) "heaven" if we always have to come back here ?

I don't and can't know exactly how it all works but we can pay attention to clues and sometimes our own 'experience' (if we have such a thing)

Can you rephrase it ? (your question)

(2018-09-20, 11:47 AM)Steve001 Wrote: [ -> ]Perhaps I have a longer historical perspective that this is an accurate assessment.

I mean it has no merit as an assessment of parapsychology, because it makes no attempt to address the evidence.

In fact, Wheeler's opinion seems to have been partly based on the mistaken belief that J. B. Rhine had been detecting in scientific fraud in the 1920s, as a postdoctoral assistant to McDougall in his experiments on Lamarckian evolution in rats. When he was asked at the AALT meeting in 1979 to be more specific about his criticisms of parapsychology, he made this accusation publicly. After he was set straight by the person he claimed had discovered the fraud, he had to make a public retraction, though he managed to do so without either admitting what he had said or apologising for having said it:
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/205/4402/144.1

(2018-09-19, 10:01 PM)Chris Wrote: [ -> ]Incidentally, I hadn't realised until recently quite how violently opposed Wheeler was to parapsychology:
https://web.archive.org/web/200807240354...events.htm

Thanks for the link.  There are a number of ideas Wheeler presented - of which I think aren't quite right.  On the other hand, time has been pretty good to Wheeler's physics papers, as groundbreaking conceptualizations.

Quote:  As Wheeler is fond of saying, we no longer can think of a universe sitting "out there" as if separated from us by a thick plate of glass. To measure a particle we must shatter the glass and alter what we measure. The physicist is no mere observer. He is an active participator. "In some strange way," Wheeler has said, "the universe is a participatory universe."

 Wheeler was one of the first prominent physicists seriously to propose that reality might not be a wholly physical phenomenon. In some sense, Wheeler suggested, reality grows out of the act of observation, and thus consciousness itself; it is "participatory."

The idea that mind participates in the universe, along with physical forces, launched scores of thinkers to embrace Wheeler's work as a basis for their own.  Over the years QM "consciousness" writers have not made much progress in generating experimental evidence for how it functions.  Wheeler opened a door and many, many folks came forward and cited him as a basis for their own conjectures.  The  conservative members of the physics and psychology communities blamed Wheeler.  That he divorced himself from J. Sarfatti and the Esalen crowd.

I see Wheeler as the thinker how helped break the hold of Physicalism on science and opened the door for research.  He rejected "quantum consciousness" as a science answer, but did embrace Information Theory.  Today where I stand - he helped set on a productive path.  I encourage reading the link about Wheeler, it is very well written.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/artic...eler-dies/

Quote: What is reality, then? Wheeler answers his own question with the koanlike phrase "it from bit." Wheeler explains the phrase as follows: "Every 'it'—every particle, every field of force, even the spacetime continuum itself—derives its function, its meaning, its very existence entirely—even if in some contexts indirectly—from the apparatus-elicited answers to yes-or-no questions, binary choices, bits."

(2018-09-20, 01:21 PM)Chris Wrote: [ -> ]I mean it has no merit as an assessment of parapsychology, because it makes no attempt to address the evidence.

In fact, Wheeler's opinion seems to have been partly based on the mistaken belief that J. B. Rhine had been detecting in scientific fraud in the 1920s, as a postdoctoral assistant to McDougall in his experiments on Lamarckian evolution in rats. When he was asked at the AALT meeting in 1979 to be more specific about his criticisms of parapsychology, he made this accusation publicly. After he was set straight by the person he claimed had discovered the fraud, he had to make a public retraction, though he managed to do so without either admitting what he had said or apologising for having said it:
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/205/4402/144.1

Over at Skeptiko the meme is "science at the tipping point" I'd say that meme is the expectation of most here and elsewhere within paranormal circles. I feel confident Wheeler would agree. I'm not holding my breath that a new paradigm is just around the corner. What I'm waiting for is headline news, (remember Daryl Bem) bar that at least research bonafide in the results.  What I'm not impressed with are results published in self styled science wannabe pro psi publications or individual non independently verified results.

(2018-09-20, 11:47 AM)Steve001 Wrote: [ -> ]Perhaps I have a longer historical perspective that this is an accurate assessment.  Classical physics is no help so to any QM theory, were does that leave the parapsychologically faithful?

Just fine, as data points are collected.  

Hypnosis is a confirmed event and has yet to be scientifically explained.

Instinct is a confirmed behavioral category in animals.  Yet - certain events and behavior by humans still exhibit instinct and intuition and is not understood.  Data is gathered in huge numbers (many being subjective accounts) and again there is no classical traction into how instinct works.  Research in to Epigenetics, a now confirmed process, is recent significant progress.  The data for Epigenetics was there for years and years and only recently has destroyed the Weismann Barrier a standard Physicalist theory in place for 100 years.

Telepathy is a strong candidate for confirmation.  The data points and recorded events are all there, but it is still politically a hot potato.  It is only held back from confirmation by deep metaphysical beliefs in the science community.

The religious influence has been drastically reduced and is not influential in parapyschological research.  Your constant reference to it is just a distraction.  Paranormal events, unlike religious ethical perspective, are subject to observation and measurement.

The trend in biology is to bioinformatics.  Slowly, but surely, how sensory information and affordances contribute to biological "mental understanding" is the key work, in my humble opinion.  Each discovery pushes the metaphysical magical powers of the physical  brain into a corner and data-based process knowledge revealed how the mind is in the heart, in the regulatory systems, in the gut and in the informational environment outside the body.

Materialism is on a ever quickening death march.  I believe that natural process (many being new understandings from information science) will account for all of the above non-normative events.

Please feel free to respond with how classic materialism describes the physical means of Hypnosis, Instinct, Intuition, Telepathy, Mental Understanding and mind itself work as physical processes.

(2018-09-20, 03:08 PM)stephenw Wrote: [ -> ]Just fine, as data points are collected.  

...

Well put, stephenw. I'm guessing that even "normal" people were able to follow you.

(2018-09-20, 10:41 AM)fls Wrote: [ -> ]... it should be pretty obvious by now that human consciousness is not progressing with subsequent generations. 

Right. Yet many (extended consciousness) proponents consider ancient civilisations to be more spiritually attuned.

(2018-09-20, 01:09 PM)tim Wrote: [ -> ]Your question is not phrased very well. Do you mean what is the point of (a) "heaven" if we always have to come back here ?

I don't and can't know exactly how it all works but we can pay attention to clues and sometimes our own 'experience' (if we have such a thing)

Can you rephrase it ? (your question)

What I'm saying is you appear to be looking forward to post mortem survival. You defend the NDE with enthusiasm. As all Christians believe Heaven holds the promise of a life many would like to live while alive. The non religious paranormal believer hold similar views, believing there will be a spiritual awakening, growth, the knowledge of the cosmos will be revealed... but suppose that post mortem survival does not lead to spiritual growth, cosmic knowledge. Instead you're just as you are now but in noncorporeal form muddling your way through time for all eternity. If that's the case, what's the point of post mortem consciousness surviving?

(2018-09-20, 03:08 PM)stephenw Wrote: [ -> ]Just fine, as data points are collected.  

Hypnosis is a confirmed event and has yet to be scientifically explained.

Instinct is a confirmed behavioral category in animals.  Yet - certain events and behavior by humans still exhibit instinct and intuition and is not understood.  Data is gathered in huge numbers (many being subjective accounts) and again there is no classical traction into how instinct works.  Research in to Epigenetics, a now confirmed process, is recent significant progress.  The data for Epigenetics was there for years and years and only recently has destroyed the Weismann Barrier a standard Physicalist theory in place for 100 years.

Telepathy is a strong candidate for confirmation.  The data points and recorded events are all there, but it is still politically a hot potato.  It is only held back from confirmation by deep metaphysical beliefs in the science community.

The religious influence has been drastically reduced and is not influential in parapyschological research.  Your constant reference to it is just a distraction.  Paranormal events, unlike religious ethical perspective, are subject to observation and measurement.

The trend in biology is to bioinformatics.  Slowly, but surely, how sensory information and affordances contribute to biological "mental understanding" is the key work, in my humble opinion.  Each discovery pushes the metaphysical magical powers of the physical  brain into a corner and data-based process knowledge revealed how the mind is in the heart, in the regulatory systems, in the gut and in the informational environment outside the body.

Materialism is on a ever quickening death march.  I believe that natural process (many being new understandings from information science) will account for all of the above non-normative events.

Please feel free to respond with how classic materialism describes the physical means of Hypnosis, Instinct, Intuition, Telepathy, Mental Understanding and mind itself work as physical processes.

There are many mysteries in science, such as:
Why does the Red Maple tree have red leaves?
How to reconcile Quantum Gravity with General Relativity
Why is the speed of light in a vacuum 186,282 miles, 698 yards, 2 feet, and 5 21/127 inches per second?
What is Dark Energy?

There are many more mysteries. What I find very curious is none of the mysteries I posted require an immaterial explanation  nor have I ever seen anyone of you want to propose an immaterial explanation and yet for some reason anything to do with the mind necessarily does. As a matter of fact folks are eager to do that. Why is that Stephen?

(2018-09-20, 01:09 PM)tim Wrote: [ -> ]Your question is not phrased very well. Do you mean what is the point of (a) "heaven" if we always have to come back here ?

I don't and can't know exactly how it all works but we can pay attention to clues and sometimes our own 'experience' (if we have such a thing)

Can you rephrase it ? (your question)

What I'm saying is you appear to be looking forward to post mortem survival. You defend the NDE with enthusiasm. As all Christians believe Heaven holds the promise of a life many would like to live while alive. Now the non religious paranormal believer hold similar views, believing there will be a spiritual awakening, growth, the knowledge of the cosmos will be revealed and afterlife will be just dandy... but suppose that post mortem survival does not lead to spiritual growth, cosmic knowledge ecetera. Instead you're just as you are now but in non corporeal form muddling your way through time for all eternity. If that's the case, what's the point of post mortem consciousness survival?

(2018-09-20, 03:08 PM)stephenw Wrote: [ -> ]Just fine, as data points are collected.  

Hypnosis is a confirmed event and has yet to be scientifically explained.

Instinct is a confirmed behavioral category in animals.  Yet - certain events and behavior by humans still exhibit instinct and intuition and is not understood.  Data is gathered in huge numbers (many being subjective accounts) and again there is no classical traction into how instinct works.  Research in to Epigenetics, a now confirmed process, is recent significant progress.  The data for Epigenetics was there for years and years and only recently has destroyed the Weismann Barrier a standard Physicalist theory in place for 100 years.

Telepathy is a strong candidate for confirmation.  The data points and recorded events are all there, but it is still politically a hot potato.  It is only held back from confirmation by deep metaphysical beliefs in the science community.

The religious influence has been drastically reduced and is not influential in parapyschological research.  Your constant reference to it is just a distraction.  Paranormal events, unlike religious ethical perspective, are subject to observation and measurement.

The trend in biology is to bioinformatics.  Slowly, but surely, how sensory information and affordances contribute to biological "mental understanding" is the key work, in my humble opinion.  Each discovery pushes the metaphysical magical powers of the physical  brain into a corner and data-based process knowledge revealed how the mind is in the heart, in the regulatory systems, in the gut and in the informational environment outside the body.

Materialism is on a ever quickening death march.  I believe that natural process (many being new understandings from information science) will account for all of the above non-normative events.

Please feel free to respond with how classic materialism describes the physical means of Hypnosis, Instinct, Intuition, Telepathy, Mental Understanding and mind itself work as physical processes.

There are many mysteries in science, such as:
Why does the Red Maple tree have red leaves?
How to reconcile Quantum Gravity with General Relativity
Why is the speed of light in a vacuum 186,282 miles, 698 yards, 2 feet, and 5 21/127 inches per second?
What is Dark Energy?

There are many more mysteries. What I find very curious is none of the mysteries I posted require an immaterial explanation  nor have I ever seen anyone of you would want to propose an immaterial explanation and yet for some reason anything to do with the mind mandates and immaterial proposition. As a matter of fact folks more than eager to do that. Why is that Stephen?

(2018-09-20, 10:39 PM)Steve001 Wrote: [ -> ]There are many mysteries in science, such as:
Why does the Red Maple tree have red leaves?
How to reconcile Quantum Gravity with General Relativity
Why is the speed of light in a vacuum 186,282 miles, 698 yards, 2 feet, and 5 21/127 inches per second?
What is Dark Energy?

There are many more mysteries. What I find very curious is none of the mysteries I posted require an immaterial explanation  nor have I ever seen anyone of you want to propose an immaterial explanation and yet for some reason anything to do with the mind necessarily does. As a matter of fact folks are eager to do that. 

As is often the case, you have a complete ignorance or fundamental misunderstanding of the issue with calling those a mystery and at the same time asserting them as brute facts requiring no further explanation, which you frequently do. You somehow stated that none of them require an immaterial explanation, but we don't have any sort of explanation for (some) of them. So how can you logically then say what kind of explanation they do or do not have? You have no idea. 

The physical constants that apparently govern the Universe are the way they are. We do not know why they are that way. Saying that their explanation must fall into one category, or must not fall into another, without any qualification or further discussion, is nonsensical. If you actually want to engage in that sort of discussion you could comment in one of the fine tuning threads on this forum, which I'm sure you won't do because it would require you to actually engage with arguments rather than just spewing your opinion as if it was undebatable fact.

Quote:Why is that Stephen?

And, of course, you can't help but use your favorite crutch of appeal to emotion to attempt to dismiss any legitimate discussion of consciousness or the mind beyond the reductive picture. You've had the same shtick for forever. Can't you come up with something novel?