(2017-09-18, 09:28 PM)Kamarling Wrote: [ -> ]I tend to think that oneness is not something we eventually attain, it is what we are now and always have been. The sense of separation is the illusion which has been created so that we can experience this kind of life without the awareness of the totality. Nevertheless, this life experience adds to the whole.
I think that the ego is that which facilitates the filtering so that we assume that which we are consciously aware of is all there is. Psi experiences provide the clues that we are more than the ego, more than the sum of our sensory input and more than the temporary (and temporal) vehicle that we currently inhabit.
In what we colloquially cal "the beginning", The One existed w/out any self-awareness but a knowledge that by 'dividing' Itself (in a holographic manner), It could experience an infinite set of POV of Itself. All That Is resulted. As you suggest, in order to have a very unique experience, as All That Is' 'ambassador' here in physical reality, we live our lives thinking we are separated from All That Is. This allows us to re-member who we really are, our True Self, a process that cannot be had in timelessness. Or I should say, a few of us re-member who we really are, the rest have a different path to take.
The ego is what grounds us in this physical illusion. The physical mind only can tell us what happened, not why or how any event that is spiritually motivating occurs.
Nice post, K.
(2017-08-22, 11:41 AM)Stan Woolley Wrote: [ -> ]Some people live in that madness. That's why I really think many people are 'insane'.
They might be surprised to see themselves behaving in a way that they don't recognise, like looking at a stranger. Is this the 'awareness' that I often read about? The really amazing thing is that some (most?) people can not ever see that difference, they are permanently in the hold of their ego. In other words, permanently in a state of 'road rage' or 'confusion', they 'wouldn't be able to get out of their mind'. If you were to try to talk to them about this, to explain how it might be, they just wouldn't get it.
Sorry, guys, for taking like 4 weeks to get back to this thread. Steve, I think you've this stuff down cold! :: I agree with everything you're saying in here at the end - of course I'm also insane 99.99% of the time.
(2017-08-22, 04:04 PM)Hurmanetar Wrote: [ -> ]Ego is also a rigid identity centered on the self and involves a near constant process of narrative construction looking forwards and backwards in time. As such, the ego is the lead character in the dramatic story that is one's life. The "ego" is what we've named the experience of being the lead character in one's own drama.
Being "stuck" in egoic perspective means that one is unable to modulate the feedback loop at the top of the consciousness hierarchy. It means one is unable to pause the process of narrative creation and be in the moment. It also means that one is unable to stretch or dissolve the mental boundaries of one's identity to reframe the narrative in a less serious way. Pain and threat of loss makes things serious, and simply altering one's perspective and playing with one's identity can reduce or eliminate the threat of loss or pain.
I think that "death of self" or "death of ego" or "mystical experience" or "persistent non-symbolic experience" or "spiritually transformative experience" or "meditation" etc... are all the result of a halting of the narrative creation process, a radical expansion or dissolution of identity, and the creation of an extra higher feedback loop that watches the ego and is able to modulate it.
Great post, Hurm. Really well articulated.
(2017-09-18, 05:14 PM)Brian Wrote: [ -> ]It's hard to describe really. My brain still registered everything else as separate from me in an academic sense and I was still able to function as normal but at the same time there was no distinction as I was just part of everything else. In Swedish, we have two verbs for "to know" Att veta is to know in an academic sense and Att känna is to know in a familiar sense and also means to feel (psychologically) These two forms of knowledge are no longer working in unison. I hope that helps. 
Tack, det var intressant att läsa om din erfarenhet.
(2017-08-19, 09:36 PM)Ninshub Wrote: [ -> ] The video then goes into an argument into how pretty much the majority of suffering involves the ego. I found the list of forms of problems and suffering that he sources back to ego so interesting that I wrote it out below.
Leo's list of the consequences of ego:
Personal consequences
fear and anxiety
anger, bitterness, hatred, violence and intolerance
outrage and unfairness
guilt and regret
annoyances
criticism and blame
emotional pain
depression
dissatisfaction and disappointment with life
shyness and insecurity, confidence problems
being inauthentic and not acting according to your values
not liking one’s self (personality, physical appearance)
boredom
loneliness and neediness
stress and chronic fatigue
all addictions
sexual misconduct and cheating
lying, dishonesty and the spreading of untruth
exploitative and manipulative behaviours
all relationship problems
self-sabotaging
money problems
motivation problems
indecisiveness and difficulty making choices
gender identity confusion
being stuck in the wrong job or career
inability to realize dreams
inability to realize the highest spiritual experiences
inability to love others (incl. commitment issues, expressing love) and to be a benevolent force (compassion, etc.)
creative difficulties
feeling offended and self-righteous
falling into dogma and ideology
obsessive thinking
"accidentally" hurting loved ones
damaging other people (ex: business partners, etc.)
damaging the environment
dying a sorry death
Societal consequences
all wars in history
genocide, conquering nations, slavery
scams, ponzi schemes and theft
rape and the abuse of children and women
financial exploitation
capitalism and communism
caste systems and power hierarchies
corruption, bribery and nepotism in government
religious intolerance, bigotry and homophobia
all religious conflicts in history
suppression of reason and science
suppression of authentic spirituality
cults and intellectual exploitation
witch trials and scapegoating
dictatorships, gangs and syndicates (corruption and abuses of power)
political gridlock and extreme partisanship in government
the oppression of human rights and civil liberties
the destruction of the environment
A few comments. Several posters have noted that the inability of most to "rise above" the lowly ego is one of the curses of mankind, and indicates a lack of spiritual development. It seems to me that many of the most important positive qualities and faculties and achievements of mankind are intimately related to and inseparable from this list of the evils of immersion in the ego. Things like for example creative achievement in the art and sciences and the positive results and progress resulting from entrepreneurship in capitalism. These sorts of activities seem to be fueled by the desires of the ego to achieve, also by desires of the ego to accumulate wealth and power, and fears by the ego that nothing might be achieved in life, or just fears of poverty and want. So many great works of art and music seem to have been fueled by suffering of the ego. I think that little progress would have been made out of the Stone Age without the drive to achieve for some times selfish goals furnished by the ego. The ego is an essential part of being human, and being controlled by it is probably the natural human condition. The negative results of immersion in the ego listed above are probably inevitable side effects accompanying the positive necessary essentials of being human, and without them the human becomes an empty "thing" without the exquisite complexity that is an essential part of being human.
Much, though I don't think most, human suffering certainly results from the ego. I don't think anybody going through the excruciating pain of trying to pass a kidney stone will avoid the suffering by rising above his ego and realizing that the real he is not his body. The physical pain = suffering mechanism is built into the human animal brain and body. But it is interesting to observe how animals seem to suffer much less from losses of bodily function like blindness, amputation of limbs, etc. They seem to naturally accept their condition and naturally try to continue as much of a happy life as possible, rather than fretting and stewing and getting depressed and angry about their condition. This seems to indicate that animals don't have anything like the overriding ego that is natural to humans. I guess being human has its tradeoffs.
(2017-10-01, 08:04 PM)nbtruthman Wrote: [ -> ]The negative results of immersion in the ego listed above are probably inevitable side effects accompanying the positive necessary essentials of being human, and without them the human becomes an empty "thing" without the exquisite complexity that is an essential part of being human. (...) I guess being human has its tradeoffs.
Yes I definitely agree. This week I've also been thinking of attachments and relationships, and if you're operating out of a complete-removal-of-ego perspective, you don't get attached in the same way and get to experience profound experiences with people that are distinctly human. Of course doing so opens the door to suffering and destructive behaviors, and possibly the payoff in the end isn't worth it (?), but there you go.
That's why I'm not and wouldn't want to be a Buddhist, personally, and why I don't agree with perspectives like Leo's where he describes all criticisms of such "enlightenment as the slaying of ego" views as "the ego creeping in and manipulating" - there is perhaps something spiritual in these very ego yearnings, especially (but not only) in the attachment realm. Possibly living life as your personality, whilst also having a meta view - nurturing and blending both - is ideal (for some, including myself).
(2017-10-01, 08:04 PM)nbtruthman Wrote: [ -> ]Much, though I don't think most, human suffering certainly results from the ego. I don't think anybody going through the excruciating pain of trying to pass a kidney stone will avoid the suffering by rising above his ego and realizing that the real he is not his body.
Here I don't agree. For many people, including me who knows what it's like to pass kidney stones (!), this plays a really minor part of our lives, and most of our lives is mental suffering, rather than physical pain.
(2017-10-01, 08:19 PM)Ninshub Wrote: [ -> ]Here I don't agree. For many people, including me who knows what it's like to pass kidney stones (!), this plays a really minor part of our lives, and most of our lives is mental suffering, rather than physical pain.
I've had kidney stones ( pure agony) I've had mental agony too, lots of it (as most of us have had of course). Pure hell, while you are subject to it.
(2017-10-01, 08:19 PM)Ninshub Wrote: [ -> ]Here I don't agree. For many people, including me who knows what it's like to pass kidney stones (!), this plays a really minor part of our lives, and most of our lives is mental suffering, rather than physical pain.
Unfortunately, chronic pain rules the lives of a lot of people, and the drugs used to control it make the suffering worse in a lot of cases through addiction problems.
I like
this Theosophical perspective of the nature of the ego:
Quote:1. Spiritual definition of ego
From a spiritual perspective, the meaning of ego is considering oneself to be distinct from others and God due to identification with the physical body and impressions in various centres of the subtle body. In short ego is leading our life as per the thinking that our existence is limited to our 5 senses, mind, and intellect and identifying with them to various degrees.
As per the science of Spirituality, our true state of existence is identification with the Soul or God-principle within us and living our day to day life with this consciousness. As the one and same God-principle exists within all, from a spiritual perspective there is unity in all Creation.
However, depending on the level of our ego, we identify with the God-principle within us, i.e. the Soul to varying degrees. If our ego is high, we identify less with the Soul or the God-principle within us.
2. What is the definition and meaning of ego – psychological perspective
In layman’s terms one can define ego as pride about oneself. Thoughts such as my body and mind, my intellect, my life, my wealth, my wife and children, I should acquire happiness, etc. arise from ego alone.
Ego, awareness of the self, pride, conceit and ‘i’ness are words related to the word ‘ego or aham’ but on a psychological plane.
There follows a schematic picture of a person with a strong ego, based on subtle knowledge drawn by a seeker with highly advanced ESP. It shows a layer of dark energy covering the entire body. It also shows the ego as surrounding and covering the soul center. These layers are presumably accumulated because this person does not identify with his soul. The drawing shows God's grace being blocked by these barriers.
There may be some truth here. But I think the key is that this is from the perspective of the soul or spirit, not that of human beings, where this pictured condition may be the intended and planned human condition.
I think 99.999...9 % of mankind automatically identify with the ego because it is their basic intended human nature to do so, and because the vast majority of people never have the time and leisure (or desire) to pursue esoteric paths, or just because they happen to be born in a time and place where such wisdom isn't available to them. The vast majority of people are too busy surviving to pay attention to such pursuits.
This human nature with its ego is the way it is because it is necessary as a practical matter in order to survive and prosper and achieve in physical life. This is living one's life instinctively identifying one's self as the physical body and personality and memories going back to childhood. This is the human self, not the soul or spirit or High Self that presumably made the actual choices of place, time, parents, and the final decision to come into the physical. Choices that the human self often would vehemently oppose.
Of course the human self is only the tip of the iceberg, but to be that self, deal with physical life as that human self, achieve many different things in the human world, and perhaps even to suffer, seem to be the main purposes of human existence. The ego is an essential part of this. Spiritual paths that attempt to subjugate and even destroy the ego would appear to subvert the very purposes of creating a harsh unforgiving physical world and sending human selves to make their way in it.