Why do I feel threatened?

There comes a point where the atheist's "advanced intelligence" starts to look a lot like a god.

That's what I find so bizarre about the popularity of these various  'simulation hypotheses'. They are put forward in an attempt to avoid saying "God did it". Instead they propose that some all-powerful beings with God-like powers did it.

We've all spent a lot of time and effort into the beliefs we've formed based on the evidence we have seen. When someone fundamentally disagrees with them, you're going to have an emotional response. Considering in the case of survival it's quite literally a case of life or death the reaction is going to even stronger still. It's just a bias we need to be aware of, nobody likes being wrong, nobody likes their comforting ideas to be threatened. Though of course it goes for the other side as well, how many reject vaguely religious sounding ideas and get incredibly hostile when their conception of the world is challenged, cause they've put so much time and effort into it and get so much comfort from it. If we can be self aware it helps us keep a firm position. I'm an atheist, I don't want god to be real, that's obviously going to bias my opinion on any number of things but at least I know it. Compared to someone else who's an atheist and doesn't want any religion to be true, so they cling to materialism like a safety blanket so nothing supernatural can even get its foot in the door.

I find the majority extremely compelling as well . Like you said, the smart intelligent opinion seems to dismiss all this stuff we talk about, it seems like only crazies believe in it, are we and the researches just deluded? I grapple with it a lot, even though it's obviously not true, it's just that social pressure can make you feel mad sometimes. One thing I do worry about that's legitimate is trying to not get into too much of an echo chamber, I feel like sometimes we can get too comfortable with survival or weird ideas. I've been listening to some podcasts with Dr Callum E Cooper recently and he gives a very good skeptical eye to survival evidence, it's good to challenge your views with people who are EDUCATED on the topic.

Though of course it goes for the other side as well, how many reject vaguely religious sounding ideas and get incredibly hostile when their conception of the world is challenged, cause they've put so much time and effort into it and get so much comfort from it. If we can be self aware it helps us keep a firm position. I'm an atheist, I don't want god to be real, that's obviously going to bias my opinion on any number of things but at least I know it. Compared to someone else who's an atheist and doesn't want any religion to be true, so they cling to materialism like a safety blanket so nothing supernatural can even get its foot in the door.

I appreciate your point of view and don't have any particular axe to grind. Though I do think the concept of 'god' is not just a single concept, different people in different times and places have had very different ideas of what it means or meant to them.

I think that the question of survival, for most atheists, belongs with religion and is not worthy of consideration having already decided that the case against religion is proven.

Is the case against religion synonymous with the possibility of a creator or an intelligence behind the universe, though. I mean it isn't, is it. I'm not suggesting you think that to be the case, it's just the way you've worded it.

Is the case against religion synonymous with the possibility of a creator or an intelligence behind the universe, though. I mean it isn't, is it. I'm not suggesting you think that to be the case, it's just the way you've worded it.

Sorry, I thought it was clear but I'll put it another way: the question of survival, for most atheists, is not worthy of consideration because it is, in their view, part and parcel of a religious belief system. 

Many atheists conflate religion and God. Many conflate religion and spirituality. Many conflate religion and the supernatural.

All of these are subjects that can be considered in isolation or with reference to each other. There are atheists who believe in an afterlife but would not be open to the idea that there is a deity involved. I have read accounts of atheists who die and find themselves in the afterlife and proceed to congregate with other atheist souls who deny the existence of God. Likewise with devout religious people who continue to hold religious services. I doubt that our personalities change very much just by stepping through the "Pearly Gates".

That, by the way, raises another question for you, Tim. What I have just mentioned about the departed personality is confirmed in a number of accounts, at least those I have read. Yet we have the NDE cases where the earthly personality changes radically after a short view of the afterlife. Why then, should it be different for NDE survivors than those who actually pass over? My own theory is that NDEs are specific lessons which are meant to answer certain questions either for the experiencer or for those who are informed by that experience. In other words, it is a special kind of exposure and not necessarily what everyone experiences at the actual time of death.

[Edit] Or, of course, it could be that the profound changes in personality for NDE survivors is due to the fact of their survival and the subsequent loss of all fear concerning death. That would certainly have a profound effect on my life.

That, by the way, raises another question for you, Tim. What I have just mentioned about the departed personality is confirmed in a number of accounts, at least those I have read. Yet we have the NDE cases where the earthly personality changes radically after a short view of the afterlife. Why then, should it be different for NDE survivors than those who actually pass over?

I suppose it depends on what we mean by personality. (personality) Consistent behavioural patterns which make us identifiable, added to our general appearance, I suppose. But this is on earth in our physical form. 

We have no idea what it really is that is leaving the body during NDE's, though, just as we don't actually have any idea what it really is that's currently sitting between our ears. We might 'think' we know but what compromises our self or soul or consciousness is a complete mystery.  It is some kind of entity, though, something persistent and tangible, without doubt.   

So when you say that the personality of NDErs changes, I agree with you but are the changes actually only modifications on the same personality ? 

My take on this is not to worry about the unknowable, too much, It is what it is and I'm hoping all will be made clear one day. Hope this helps, Dave but I'm fairly certain it won't and I don't blame you

So when you say that the personality of NDErs changes, I agree with you but are the changes actually only modifications on the same personality ? 

My take on this is not to worry about the unknowable, too much, It is what it is and I'm hoping all will be made clear one day. Hope this helps, Dave but I'm fairly certain it won't and I don't blame you

OK, just to clarify what I mean by personality: it is the way we think, behave and interact with those around us and the world in general. I might be described as generally cheerful or grumpy, abrasive or accommodating, generous or miserly, arrogant or humble. These, for me, are personality (or character) traits. They affect how I see the world and what I am likely to believe or reject.

One of my dominant personality traits is fear - particularly fear of death, as I have discussed here before. Some kind of positive experience coming out of a brush with death leading to a loss of that fear would certainly have a big impact on my personality. My identity would remain the same. I would still be who I have always been (in this life, at least). But people would notice a dramatic change in the way I approach life.

OK, just to clarify what I mean by personality: it is the way we think, behave and interact with those around us and the world in general. I might be described as generally cheerful or grumpy, abrasive or accommodating, generous or miserly, arrogant or humble. These, for me, are personality (or character) traits. They affect how I see the world and what I am likely to believe or reject.

One of my dominant personality traits is fear - particularly fear of death, as I have discussed here before. Some kind of positive experience coming out of a brush with death leading to a loss of that fear would certainly have a big impact on my personality. My identity would remain the same. I would still be who I have always been (in this life, at least). But people would notice a dramatic change in the way I approach life.

Fear of death seems to me to be a perfectly natural thing. Fear of the unknown - what will happen, will it hurt, is there anything else or is that it etc? I suspect that most people rarely think too much about it and then only when they have to through bereavement and then they usually revert to their original mindset unless something triggers deeper consideration.

Perhaps it’s a bit like physical training: being conditioned to pain isn’t going to happen through one occasional punch. It’s a continuous process of lower level discomfort and pain that in the end can make us more resilient to the real thing. In some ways perhaps death is like that - the long term consideration  of it or even just dwelling on it can force us to adapt or condition ourselves in some ways, but it does come with the burden of living with conscious awareness and potentially therefore fear.

How we deal with it probably varies from person to person but I do think knowledge is to some extent power. Even then fear may not be eliminated. Although I know everyone survives a rollercoaster ride (more or less), it does not remove the fear for me.

It’s unlikely that you’ll get an experience in this life that removes all fear but not impossible. 

Just a few thoughts.

Perhaps it’s a bit like physical training: being conditioned to pain isn’t going to happen through one occasional punch. It’s a continuous process of lower level discomfort and pain that in the end can make us more resilient to the real thing. In some ways perhaps death is like that - the long term consideration  of it or even just dwelling on it can force us to adapt or condition ourselves in some ways, but it does come with the burden of living with conscious awareness and potentially therefore fear.

For me that isn't really the way I see things. I see death as something gentler, and also something joyful to look forward to. It isn't that I'm in any hurry, I'm happy where I am now, thank you very much. But I think it's just a gradual loosening of the vice-like grip in which the physical body holds us, a letting go and an expansion into great freedom. An uplifting process.

As for preparation, I see that only in terms of weighing what in my current here-and-now existence is really of value, and what can I let go of. That may be material things, or activities which take time which might be better spent doing something else. There are plenty of positives in this world, and a lot I'm still looking forward to. It's a matter of considering every moment to be of value in its own way.

The only real difficulties are attachments to other people, we know separation and bereavement can be painful, but this takes place throughout life as we lose one person or another. To counterbalance that, the potential for new meetings and possibly reunions which are so much talked about in NDEs.

If I may quote from Life Before Life by Helen Wambach.

Here the author is describing a group regression session she was just carrying out, and the participants had just emerged from a several-hour-long process and were about to record on paper the details of their experiences.

As I passed out the data sheets, many of my subjects smiled at me. They seemed in a remarkably pleasant mood, but very thoughtful and quiet. Several of them told me they had tears in their eyes, though they didn’t feel sad. One woman told me as I handed her the data sheet, “Oh, I felt such compassion for that baby who was me. I felt such sadness to leave the place where I was to come back into physical life. It seemed so hard to be confined in a little body, and to lose the lightness and the love I had known in the between-life state.” She laughed as she showed me the tears that were rolling down her cheeks.

I reassured her that hers was a common reaction, and that soon she’d feel cheerful. “Oh, I feel cheerful enough,” she said, “it’s just that I realize that birth is not a joyous occasion. The two deaths I had in the two past lives tonight were very pleasant experiences. It’s getting born that seems the tragedy.