Evidence of "time travel"? aka Time Slips

[Ninshub]

My own suspicion is that these people may become something like strongly quantum coherent with a third party/s. More coherence = Stronger feelings

That's what I think 'feeling strongly' has something to do with. Something like lots of the same pattern adding up... You might think about it a bit like amplification of a classic wave, how in-phase waves are constructive, and out of phase waves are destructive. And it might also happen when there is a lot less interference, which would interfere with adding a pattern up, and thus might average a pattern out.

I can imagine many different permutations of patterns which might become coherent and interfere, such as the pattern of cavities in a protein; the brains spatial network of patterns - formed from experiences and genetics; and temporal and spatial patterns in the everyday external world which we share.

I can also think of lots of different ways these patterns might add up/or interfere... such as between other third parties (your two friends); between me and third parties (me and a friend); and between me and myself.

That last way of patterns adding up sounds a bit weird. But because I evolve my own pattern over my lifetime, I'm pretty damn coherent with my own patterns as I move through space-time, that's because they are my patterns, and those patterns add up to the present, and to who I am at any one time.

I'm guessing whatever the mechanism/s of these phenomena turn out to be, they are completely normal, and almost completely hidden from view (although staring us in the face). It's normally only when 'we' become coherent with an already highly coherent pattern (strong feeling), and/or pattern that has little interference (unique), and this pattern is totally out of place from our normal location in space-time, that we go... what the f*** was that! Because it doesn't make sense with the way we've been taught to understand the world.

I'm not comfortable enough with QM to strongly grasp everything you're saying here, Max, but from what I understand of it it sounds like a worthy potential explanation for the strong feelings experienced by some people in this type of event. I do wonder why those feelings are negative, though (at least in those two cases), rather than strong and positive.

[Ninshub]

Apparently there's this single street in Liverpool, Bold Street, where several people have experienced time slips. It's interesting that a specific spot like this could occasion similar experiences for different people at different times.

This writer recounts some of them:
The Liverpool Time Slips and Mysterious Occurences in Bold Street

The stories of Frank and Carol in 1996, and the thieving youth in 2006, are amazing, because they both involve going back to earlier times suddenly (50s and 60s respectively, so something like 40 years earlier), and in the case of the latter even confronting a newspaper dated to 1967!

Now, you may think that Sean was making the story up to escape from the guard. But the strange tale didn't end there. When the Security Guard was interviewed, he stated that when he ran after Sean, and turned down the dead end Alley after him, he said that Sean had completely disappeared!

When the newspaper checked out the facts of Sean's story, they found that everything he said was historically accurate.

I came across these stories listening to this podcast (at 18:50 starting):

[Ninshub]

A more intellectually-flavoured podcast on the topic, referenced in the Not Alone podcast I posted:



This discusses events MacKenzie (from Chris' post) wrote about, according to the description:
http://www.unexplainedpodcast.com/episod...t-of-joint

That's not one I've heard of before. I'm tempted to have a look around the scene, as it's not too far from where I live.he reference for that in an SPR publication.

Today I went to have a look around Wotton, where the Bartons had their strange experience.

As far as I can tell, although the incident happened in 1954, it wasn't investigated by the SPR until 1973, and Mary Rose Barrington is said to have delivered a paper on it the following year. But I haven't been able to find a published version of that. Alan Murdie's online article refers to Andrew MacKenzie, The Seen and the Unseen, chapter 30 (1987) and Colin Wilson, Beyond the Occult, p. 243 (1988). But it seems that Wilson took his version from MacKenzie. I assume MacKenzie is the main published source, but I haven't seen it yet. Wilson's version, from a preview at Google Books, is as follows:

[Image: Wilson_Wotton1.jpg]

[Image: Wilson_Wotton2.jpg]

Having been there, I still find this very puzzling. 

Here is part of a modern Ordnance Survey map showing Wotton church and the nearby area, with the following indicated:
1. Wotton church
2. The railway bridge to the north-west
3. A pathway up the hillside to the north
4. The monument to Bishop Samuel Wilberforce mentioned in the TV documentary
[Edit: For the red and blue lines, see my second post on 23 July below.]

[Image: WottonMap3.jpg]

The relevant features seem similar on old Ordnance Survey maps at https://www.old-maps.co.uk.

It's obvious that (as can be seen from the contour lines on the map), the countryside near the church is anything but flat (which Mrs Barton claimed it was). But equally, it's impossible to go directly uphill from the church, as it's situated near the end of a ridge, with a steep narrow valley immediately to the east and the land to the north descending more gently to the bottom of a broader valley oriented east-west. On the north side of that valley, the ground rises steeply by more than 120 feet. 

Leaving the churchyard by the main gate and turning right, as the Bartons are supposed to have done, one comes to a narrow path following the boundary of the churchyard round to the north. That path is now, like the Bartons' path, overgrown. But beyond the graveyard it descends rather than rising, goes through some woodland, then across a field, past a farm and along a track over the railway. Beyond another field it enters a small but quite densely wooded area with pathways going steeply uphill to the right. 

Given the various elements of the Bartons' story - including their recollection of having crossed the railway line - this option seems to be a much better fit than turning the other way from the church gate into the narrow valley, or turning left before the farm to head towards the Wilberforce monument (which involves no steep slopes and misses the railway line). But it would require them to have forgotten the descending and flat parts of the pathway that came before entering the wood on the north side of the valley. This is perhaps more plausible than indicated in the TV documentary, which says that Mr Barton returned the following Sunday and was unable to retrace his steps. According to Wilson's account it was two years before Mrs Barton and then Mr Barton returned to the scene. Wilson's account also gives the impression that the account written by the Bartons then was lost, and that the earliest surviving record was made 19 years after the event.

Regarding the backless bench where the Bartons had their lunch, the pathway up the hillside leaves the small wood to head north-east, but remains lined with trees.

[Image: WottonSatellite.jpg]

There are now at least two backless benches overlooking the valley, in the area indicated '3' on the O.S. map above, though they don't look as old as the 1950s, and their surroundings don't really match the description of a clearing in a wood. Evidently neither the Bartons in 1956 nor the SPR in 1973-4 were able to find a matching bench, but one wonders how wide an area they searched, given the Bartons' impression that the hillside was close to the church. Wilson's account says that a woodman told Mr Barton in 1956 that there was no wooden bench "on the whole estate". Presumably this meant the Wotton Estate. I don't know what its extent would have been then, but today it certainly doesn't include the hillside to the north, which is managed by the National Trust.

Perhaps it would be possible to get a clearer picture from MacKenzie's account of the case, or preferably Mary Rose Barrington's report to the SPR.

Finally, here's an obituary of Eric Barton (1909-1997) that appeared in the Independent after his death (the year after the TV documentary was made). It makes him sound rather eccentric, but gives no hint of any interest in the paranormal. Mrs Barton appears to be still living, so she was presumably quite a bit younger than her husband:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/peopl...54603.html

To my surprise, I found a borrowable copy of MacKenzie's book "The Seen and the Unseen" (1987) in Holborn Library. Here's the beginning of his chapter on the Wotton case:

[Image: MacKenzie247.jpg]
[Image: MacKenzie248.jpg]
[Image: MacKenzie249.jpg]

Note that MacKenzie says that after Mrs Barton "saw" the three men, the Bartons walked a little further and soon began to descend, found themselves on a path that crossed the railway, and having gone over they fell asleep on the grass. So the railway crossing came after the vision, not before, contrary to my speculation above. Also, the bench is described as having a back, rather than being "backless" as in the TV documentary.

The subsequent history is a bit more complicated than in Colin Wilson's version:
(1) The experience preyed on Mrs Barton's mind and she went back to Wotton almost exactly two years later, but found no path and no hill when she left the churchyard and turned right. A local resident couldn't think of anywhere that resembled the place she described.
(2) The following Sunday Mr Barton went to Wotton himself to sort out what he called "this tale of nonsense". A woodman on the Wotton estate couldn't think of anywhere that fitted his description, and told him categorically there were no wooden benches or seats on the Wotton estate and never had been in his experience.
(3) Soon afterwards the Bartons visited the SPR and told their story to Sir George Joy and G. W. Lambert, and as the Society was moving its headquarters they were invited to climb a ladder into an attic to discuss it, which Mr Barton declined to do.
(4) In July 1973 the Bartons told Mary Rose Barrington of their experience. Soon afterwards she and John Stiles spent some hours looking for the path, clearing and bench near Wotton church and other nearby churches.
(5) In November 1980 MRB found a rough account of the case she had written and reinterviewed Mrs Barton, finding her self-consistent. She tended to omit rather than add material, but further probing (usually without leading questions) elicited the omitted material.
(6) In June 1984 MRB and Stiles went to the area twice, and found what they thought was a promising possibility. Leaving the churchyard by the east gate and going down into the narrow valley and northwards, they eventually reached a rising wooded path to their left, leading to a sort of clearing and a glimpse of the valley below. But when Mrs Barton was taken there she rejected the possibility.
(7) Mary Rose Barrington's paper was presented at a conference on psychical research in Oxford in [August] 1984 (not 1974 as stated by Wilson).

The theory about the three men mentioned in John Evelyn's diary is mentioned, but not the theory about Bishop Wilberforce. (Did that arise when the TV documentary was being made?)

[Ninshub]

Thanks for all your efforts and research, Chris. When I get the time, I'll definitely look back into the story and examine closely what you've come up with and analyzed!

I have added a little red line to the map above, indicating the suggested solution MRB and John Stiles came up with in 1984, which Mrs Barton rejected. I don't think that works very well anyway, for several reasons, but mainly because the climb through the woods wouldn't be long or high enough, and would leave them only 10-15 feet above the bottom of the valley, which would be some 300 yards away - whereas MacKenzie's account has the land in front of the clearing falling away steeply, giving a view down into a valley like the view from a hill.

The trouble is that the only steep slopes around are the sides of the narrow valley to the east of the church - which doesn't seem to fit at all - and the hillside on the other side of the wide valley to the north of the church. So despite the fact that MacKenzie mentions the Bartons crossing the railway after the experience in the clearing and not before, I still wonder whether they could have followed something like the route I've indicated in blue on the map above. There is indeed a pathway going up that hill with grass on both sides, and a parallel tree-lined track to its left, which might have given the impression of a clearing with woods behind. And afterwards they could have turned right, and gone down the slope to cross the railway by the next bridge to the east.

That would require them to have forgotten about a reasonably long walk to the foot of that hillside, including crossing a railway bridge. But given the fact that two years had elapsed, that may be plausible. And if we are looking for a real landscape, we have to assume that to some extent they had forgotten how they got there, or else they would have been able to find it again ...