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Being forced to go back against your will
#1
This is a scenario I've read in a number of Reincarnation and NDE cases. Person dies, goes to some place full of light, it feels all warm and fuzzy, they have absolutely no intention of leaving, but are told they have to or are forced to by someone else. I don't know about anyone else on the forum, but doesn't that override all of the love and light stuff? Isn't trying to argue that it's a good thing just a form of Stockholm Syndrome and Learned Helplessness? I mean these are people who had no intention of going back, what possible right could any other entity have to just shove them back in their body? What possible obligation could the person have to reincarnate?

I'd argue they have none. Granted I argue rights don't exist at all, only power. Therefore all those feelings of overwhelming love and peace are the equivalent of the candy strangers use to lure kids into vans. I'm also coming at this from a lot of my own experience with the paranormal. Which, although being overall very mixed, has included a lot of physical injuries caused by self entitled people on other planes of existence. It's practically a tradition at this point that every time I leave my body something either tries to eat or kill me, shove me back in, or otherwise tells me I can't leave. Sometime I can't leave because I'm, presumably, not "allowed" to leave. During the times I've gotten the closest I still haven't managed it because I've never been able to cut the connection to my body for some reason. And I once tried to cut it with a sword, which paradoxically made me dissolve and return to my body even faster.

I've semi-successfully tried to leave and "go home" probably around 30 times at this point. I've tried everything short of actual suicide which I straight up will not do since it would defeat the entire point. Dreamsoap used to pull me out of my body and hand me off to our mutual friend who were never able to stabilise me. So i'd just slowly, painfully, melt away until I went unconscious and woke up back in my body. She did that close to a dozen times.

We've both taken a very, literally, combative stance against a lot of this stuff. Every time we see another story about someone who got shoved back in or told "it's not your time yet" or anything else without any justification that didn't amount to "Because I told you so" it annoys us and reminds us why we are so invested in magic. If there's people out there who are capable of picking and choosing merely because they'e more powerful then effective means of self defence need to be developed to mitigate that. It doesn't matter how important they think they are, or what lessons they think other people need to learn. Or how they think those people need to learn them, It's not their existence, and no amount of power will change that. If they believe so strongly that life needs to be lived a certain way then they can come down here themselves and live it and leave everyone else alone. Otherwise they can't be surprised when someone eventually does a number of unpleasant things to them against their will. After all they certainly didn't have a problem with it when they had the power, why would it be any different when the roles were reversed unless they're complete hypocrites?

Sorry for this being a bit ranty and rambly and yes I fully admit I can't back up any of the paranormal stuff with proper lab certified evidence. Nor do I expect anyone to believe it. But that's where I'm coming from on this regardless, and I'm curious what other peoples opinions on it are.
"Being polite is just lying with a smile"
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#2
(12-08-2017, 11:52 PM)Mediochre Wrote: This is a scenario I've read in a number of Reincarnation and NDE cases. Person dies, goes to some place full of light, it feels all warm and fuzzy, they have absolutely no intention of leaving, but are told they have to or are forced to by someone else. I don't know about anyone else on the forum, but doesn't that override all of the love and light stuff? Isn't trying to argue that it's a good thing just a form of Stockholm Syndrome and Learned Helplessness? I mean these are people who had no intention of going back, what possible right could any other entity have to just shove them back in their body? What possible obligation could the person have to reincarnate?

I'd argue they have none. Granted I argue rights don't exist at all, only power. Therefore all those feelings of overwhelming love and peace are the equivalent of the candy strangers use to lure kids into vans. I'm also coming at this from a lot of my own experience with the paranormal. Which, although being overall very mixed, has included a lot of physical injuries caused by self entitled people on other planes of existence. It's practically a tradition at this point that every time I leave my body something either tries to eat or kill me, shove me back in, or otherwise tells me I can't leave. Sometime I can't leave because I'm, presumably, not "allowed" to leave. During the times I've gotten the closest I still haven't managed it because I've never been able to cut the connection to my body for some reason. And I once tried to cut it with a sword, which paradoxically made me dissolve and return to my body even faster.

I've semi-successfully tried to leave and "go home" probably around 30 times at this point. I've tried everything short of actual suicide which I straight up will not do since it would defeat the entire point. Dreamsoap used to pull me out of my body and hand me off to our mutual friend who were never able to stabilise me. So i'd just slowly, painfully, melt away until I went unconscious and woke up back in my body. She did that close to a dozen times.

We've both taken a very, literally, combative stance against a lot of this stuff. Every time we see another story about someone who got shoved back in or told "it's not your time yet" or anything else without any justification that didn't amount to "Because I told you so" it annoys us and reminds us why we are so invested in magic. If there's people out there who are capable of picking and choosing merely because they'e more powerful then effective means of self defence need to be developed to mitigate that. It doesn't matter how important they think they are, or what lessons they think other people need to learn. Or how they think those people need to learn them, It's not their existence, and no amount of power will change that. If they believe so strongly that life needs to be lived a certain way then they can come down here themselves and live it and leave everyone else alone. Otherwise they can't be surprised when someone eventually does a number of unpleasant things to them against their will. After all they certainly didn't have a problem with it when they had the power, why would it be any different when the roles were reversed unless they're complete hypocrites?

Sorry for this being a bit ranty and rambly and yes I fully admit I can't back up any of the paranormal stuff with proper lab certified evidence. Nor do I expect anyone to believe it. But that's where I'm coming from on this regardless, and I'm curious what other peoples opinions on it are.

I think the 'you have to go back', 'it's your choice' and 'come back to us' etc., are all ways of understanding, what we understand when wakeful - as the local environment. That's the environment in which the experient is embedded during their experience. As I wrote about on Skeptiko here...

http://www.skeptiko-forum.com/threads/ho...post-20603

If there is any truth to the claims that people can leave their body (OBE) at will, (different to a spontaneous OBE), then I suspect it would operate similarly to how I think the OBE operates, and be more about letting things in, than literally leaving ones body.

That is, patterns of activation in the brain, can also do something like summing up alike patterns from outside the brain, and that these internal patterns can become coherent with other alike external patterns.

As an everyday example... you write a hand written note to yourself to remind you that you need to collect your suit from the dry cleaners. When you re-read your note later, you get access to your past thoughts, which you experience as remembering.

I don't think that's how we've been taught to understand how things work.

If things work the way I suggest, then the everyday act of taking a holiday (for example) is a far more interesting and amazing than is currently accepted, as is moving jobs, or decorating your new house etc. These activities all provide people with new patterns in spacetime, to some degree, they act a bit like putting away all of one's past hand written notes, and creating some new blank notepaper. The same therefore happens with the brain, new pathways are created, and the old unused pathways fall into disrepair.

If there is magic in the world (I don't know if there is), then I would think it operates in a similar manner, and is somehow based on the use of patterns and coherence.
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#3
(12-10-2017, 12:27 AM)Max_B Wrote: I think the 'you have to go back', 'it's your choice' and 'come back to us' etc., are all ways of understanding, what we understand when wakeful - as the local environment. That's the environment in which the experient is embedded during their experience. As I wrote about on Skeptiko here...

http://www.skeptiko-forum.com/threads/ho...post-20603

If there is any truth to the claims that people can leave their body (OBE) at will, (different to a spontaneous OBE), then I suspect it would operate similarly to how I think the OBE operates, and be more about letting things in, than literally leaving ones body.

That is, patterns of activation in the brain, can also do something like summing up alike patterns from outside the brain, and that these internal patterns can become coherent with other alike external patterns.

As an everyday example... you write a hand written note to yourself to remind you that you need to collect your suit from the dry cleaners. When you re-read your note later, you get access to your past thoughts, which you experience as remembering.

I don't think that's how we've been taught to understand how things work.

If things work the way I suggest, then the everyday act of taking a holiday (for example) is a far more interesting and amazing than is currently accepted, as is moving jobs, or decorating your new house etc. These activities all provide people with new patterns in spacetime, to some degree, they act a bit like putting away all of one's past hand written notes, and creating some new blank notepaper. The same therefore happens with the brain, new pathways are created, and the old unused pathways fall into disrepair.

If there is magic in the world (I don't know if there is), then I would think it operates in a similar manner, and is somehow based on the use of patterns and coherence.

I think things partially work the way you suggest, but under your model all the verified poltergeists I've done and kruger effect injuries I've sustained should never have happened. But they did. Your model only covers the passive reception of knowledge, but poltergeists include me not only remote viewing an area but also physically interacting with it. Clearly it's not just me passively picking up on fields if I can do that. Same goes for Kruger effect injuries. I'm pretty sure "picking up on field data" didn't spontaneously cause my two loose teeth, black eye, bleeding nose, and numerous minor cuts and bruises mostly on the left side of my body that one day in the crowded library at my university. I'm pretty sure it was actually caused from what it appeared to be caused by, getting the shit kicked out of me by an old friend who was fed up with me not believing they even existed and handwaving all other evidence they'd tried to provide as "probably just my imagination."

That being said I do use field effects like you suggest all the time in my training. The "search projection" that I developed was designed specifically to locate things via field data just like you describe. But that's to find the coordinates of an actual, real thing, not just create a construct in my mind. And given my track record with purposefully created poltergeists it's a pretty safe bet what I'm seeing is actually real. I've even designed a few spells to use field data that I've tested in poltergeists. Particularly "On-Awareness" scripts. Such as condensing a bunch of energy on a door, set to dump into it as kinetic force if it gets hit with a pattern of someone looking at the door, closing it when they do. The Rose Rune I've referenced several times before is another nail in the coffin to the idea that it's just passive knowledge from fields given I and Dreamsoap were able to watch the rune work with our own physical eyes for a few days despite originally creating it via poltergeist.

In short, I don't think you're wrong, but your model clearly doesn't explain or account for everything. It's likely one set of effects in and amongst others.

Also there's a long story behind me wanting to go home and it's far from a low level feeling. Short version is that these days we all think this life was overall a big, unnecessary mistake given it was just the result of someone getting mad at me, me getting mad back at them, and saying "fine, I'll go down and fucking do better and prove it if that's how you feel."

That is at least what appears to be the most likely scenario. This life in particular has a lot of ambiguity surrounding it and I'm not 100% on anything since I can't verify all of it yet. But most of the evidence I've gathered points to that version being the most likely to be true.
"Being polite is just lying with a smile"
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#4
(12-10-2017, 12:27 AM)Max_B Wrote: I think I went a little overboard in my last reply and also forgot to put in the various qualifiers for my claims. Obviously I don't expect you to belive them or take them at face value.
I do think your model has some real strength behind it but I think I buried that sentiment under a lot of the other stuff I said. Just wanted to make those things clear though.
"Being polite is just lying with a smile"
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#5
(12-08-2017, 11:52 PM)Mediochre Wrote: This is a scenario I've read in a number of Reincarnation and NDE cases. Person dies, goes to some place full of light, it feels all warm and fuzzy, they have absolutely no intention of leaving, but are told they have to or are forced to by someone else. I don't know about anyone else on the forum, but doesn't that override all of the love and light stuff? Isn't trying to argue that it's a good thing just a form of Stockholm Syndrome and Learned Helplessness? I mean these are people who had no intention of going back, what possible right could any other entity have to just shove them back in their body? What possible obligation could the person have to reincarnate?

I think they might be 'forced' to go back because they agreed to it beforehand. People very often mention a contract of some sort before we incarnate. That may be a bit earthlike type of thing, but I don't think it's that strange.

Life on earth can be anything but love & light, it can be a tough place to come, full of paradoxes, mystery's and of course pain and suffering; on the other hand it's also a place full of beauty, when we fall in love it sure doesn't seem so bad, does it?

I know my point of view is a thorn in your side Mediocre, maybe it's something that you have to look at? I have many such thorns that I'm trying to remove, just one more guy trying to make sense of it all. 

By the way, I've never had anyone on 'ignore', I can read posts without getting offended. Sure, I get annoyed sometimes, but the anger is temporary, I'm trying to cut it down to fleeting!
Oh my God, I hate all this.   Surprise
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#6
(12-16-2017, 08:40 AM)Stan Woolley Wrote: I think they might be 'forced' to go back because they agreed to it beforehand. People very often mention a contract of some sort before we incarnate. That may be a bit earthlike type of thing, but I don't think it's that strange.

It is way too common that the NDE community has the POV that post-mortem experience is limited to "returning to Spirit" without their being a pre-plan to have that post-mortem experience included. Where was it said that we are unable to create the post-mortem reality just as we do this living physical illusion as a continuing part of the overall theme we are exploring?
Existence is not subject to time; time is subject to Existence.
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