Psience Quest

(2017-09-24, 01:34 PM)Steve001 Wrote: [ -> ]How is the mystery of the disembodied mind the simpler? From you and people whom  hold this belief and that's only what it is go into no detail how a disembodied mind works. Saying it's simple doesn't mean it is.

Okay, I've tried to explain this to you before, Steve so I'll give it another go.

You cannot measure or see the human "mind" (the self)  but we know it exists, that's a fact that's not debateable. It's not your skull, it's not your eyeballs, it's not even the cells (neurons) that you claim produce it. It's not even the thoughts that the "mind" produces but although thoughts exist, just like the mind, we can't see them in an FMRI scanner.

As the mind is immaterial it seems quite reasonable to assume it could in theory at least pass "through" "or out of" the machine (brain) which either "produces" it or "harbours" it... even if it's just for a brief period. Radio waves pass through physical substance.

The reports on which the data has been gathered come from people who claim that their consciousness, their self ...somehow left or exited their physical body (usually out of the head). They feel everything that is vital about them, separating and rising up to a position where they are able to observe in real time reality everything that is going on around them.  That "mind" or "self" that they were used to experiencing from within their skull, is now OUT of their skull.

They can literally (as far as they are concerned) see themselves (their physical body)  below. They know it.

If their reports are accurate (and they are ) then the simplest explanation is that their "self" or "mind" was somehow able to relocate away from their bodies. I understand the difficulty this produces in sceptics...they want to observe and measure whatever this "mind" or "self" is, they want to see it floating around ......but they can't "see" or "measure" the mind now, inside the skull ....but we know it exists ! Why not just be open to it and wait and see what the experiments eventually reveal ?

Surely you must at least acknowledge that it may well happen to you. Why do you (clearly) assume that you would not accept it as being real, just as the millions of other people have done ?

(2017-09-24, 12:28 PM)Obiwan Wrote: [ -> ]It seems to play an important role in recall  for the physical human being that’s for sure. Exactly what its role is in the storage of memories is anyone’s guess as far as I can see. That’s without even considering the implications of NDE phenomena and after-death communications.

It definitely plays an important role during awake states. I have had unbelievable recall during lucid dreams so there is something that changes when not in normal awake state. Can't put my finger on it yet,,, but working on it.

(2017-09-24, 01:11 PM)tim Wrote: [ -> ]Your basic fault is assuming the testimonial provided by Reynolds and Speltzer is an accurate accounting.

You see, that's the beauty of it,,, there are a thousand other NDE and OBE stories that one can just as easily point to. You can't discount all of them, and retain any semblance of objectivity or credibility. 

Something on the order of 3% of the entire population has had an experience of this type. That's MILLIONS of people. Are you going to wave your hand and call all of those stories fake?

(2017-09-24, 02:03 PM)Steve001 Wrote: [ -> ]I make such assumption because every animal with a complex brain exhibits complex behaviors and cognition  Animals without do not. Take for example  *Einstein's brain had more glial cells than an average brain. Further reading: http://scientificbrains.com/5-reaons-why...elligence/ 
Where in the heck did you get the grossly mistaken thought the brain plays host to the soul from me? The soul is an unproven belief.


*https://www.inc.com/mithu-storoni/what-einsteins-brain-tells-us-about-intelligence-a.html

snip- Where in the heck did you get the grossly mistaken thought the brain plays host to the soul from me?

Sorry there are a hundred or more people on this forum, it's a rather difficult task to keep everyone's particular world view in crystal clarity..

snip- every animal with a complex brain exhibits complex behaviors and cognition  Animals without do not. 
Show me some cause and effect evidence. That is simply a something we are inferring from what we have seen but don't understand. 

Also, I have already pointed to HUMANS without a complex brain, that have gotten passing grades in college. So although yes, we may have drawn some theoretical relationship between brain size and complexity, there are too many exceptions to call it a rule. The truth of the matter is: we have no idea how the brain works, and all of your claims don't really change that fact.

(2017-09-24, 03:16 PM)jkmac Wrote: [ -> ]You see, that's the beauty of it,,, there are a thousand other NDE and OBE stories that one can just as easily point to. You can't discount all of them, and retain any semblance of objectivity or credibility. 

Something on the order of 3% of the entire population has had an experience of this type. That's MILLIONS of people. Are you going to wave your hand and call all of those stories fake?

Not me, Jkmac I'm a proponent. The Reynolds case is 100 % sound and it always was. Ideological sceptics told lies and spread misinformation about it because they didn't like the implications of what it meant. I guess my post wasn't immediately clear. I wasn't supporting Steve's statement, I was smiling because I know it to be false.

(2017-09-24, 03:24 PM)Max_B Wrote: [ -> ]Again, your comments don't really touch what I've said...

Gotta tell you Max. You saying that doesn't make it so.

I specifically spoke to a quote from your post. You saying that it doesn't "touch" what you said makes no sense to me. 

So I guess it's time for me to just walk away from the conversation and let others draw whatever conclusions they wish.

For those others who wish to delved further into this, I'm certainly willing.

(2017-09-24, 03:26 PM)tim Wrote: [ -> ]Not me, Jkmac I'm a proponent. The Reynolds case is 100 % sound and it always was. Ideological sceptics told lies and spread misinformation about it because they didn't like the implications of what it meant. I guess my post wasn't immediately clear. I wasn't supporting Steve's statement, I was smiling because I know it to be false.

Sorry. Didn't know you were being sarcastic... That's the trouble with keyboards and screens.. They can't smile back at you very well... 

(2017-09-24, 03:25 PM)jkmac Wrote: [ -> ]snip- Where in the heck did you get the grossly mistaken thought the brain plays host to the soul from me?

Sorry there are a hundred or more people on this forum, it's a rather difficult task to keep everyone's particular world view in crystal clarity..

snip- every animal with a complex brain exhibits complex behaviors and cognition  Animals without do not. 
Show me some cause and effect evidence. That is simply a something we are inferring from what we have seen but don't understand. 

Also, I have already pointed to HUMANS without a complex brain, that have gotten passing grades in college. So although yes, we may have drawn some theoretical relationship between brain size and complexity, there are too many exceptions to call it a rule. The truth of the matter is: we have no idea how the brain works, and all of your claims don't really change that fact.

And you have even less of an idea how non local consciousness works, but that doesn't stop you for one moment. Mine aren't empty claims.

(2017-09-24, 03:49 PM)Steve001 Wrote: [ -> ]And you have even less of an idea how non local consciousness works, but that doesn't stop you for one moment. Mine aren't empty claims.

These aren't just "claims". I am citing actual evidence. 

And what I am suggesting actually concurs with the evidence, which your's do not. Correct me if I am wrong on this part.

So which should be believed?

(2017-09-24, 03:50 PM)Max_B Wrote: [ -> ]You just haven't understood what I've said, that's all.

OK.

Let's give this a try...

If anyone else on this forum feels like they understand what Max is saying, you would you please say so on this thread, and perhaps explain it to me, so I can understand it?