Psience Quest

In order for karma to be interpreted as judgmental, who is going to judge you?

Karma is entirely self-imposed. You create it by your beliefs and attitudes about yourself and the world. Any karma you "feel" is a belief, and something you chose to go through as a theme in this life. All beliefs can be changed.

"What you put out is what you get back". Law Three, simple physics.

This short essay by Granville Sewell is I think one of the best deistic rationalizations of the reality of evil I have encountered.  Of course there are other rationalizations, and of course the materialist view that no rationalization is possible, so "suck it up". 

A vast amount of suffering is caused by evil actions of human beings. Second, there is a vast amount of "natural evil" caused by the natural world by things like disease, floods and earthquakes. Any proposed deistic or other solution to the ancient theological problem of suffering has to explain both categories. 

The basic approach in this essay is to combine various arguments that mankind's suffering is an inevitable accompaniment of our greatest blessings and benefits.

Why pain, suffering and evil? Main points that are made:

(1) There is the observed regularity of natural law. The basic laws of physics appear to be cleverly designed to create conditions suitable for human life and development. It can be surmised that this intricate fine-tuned design is inherently a series of tradeoffs and balances, allowing and fostering human existence but also inevitably allowing "natural evil" to regularly occur. In other words, the best solution to the overall "system requirements" (which include furnishing manifold opportunities for humans to experience and achieve) inherently includes natural effects that cause suffering to human beings. 

This points out that there may be logical and fundamental limitations to God's creativity. Maybe even He can't 100% satisfy all the requirements simultaneously. Maybe He doesn't have complete control over nature, because that would interfere with the essential requirements for creative and fulfilling human life. After all, human achievement requires imperfection and adverse conditions to exist as a natural part of human life.  

(2) There is the apparent need for human free will as one of the most important "design requirements". This inevitably leads to vast amounts of suffering caused by evil acts of humans to each other. Unfortunately, there is no way to get around that one, except to make humans "zombies" or robots. 

(3) Some suffering is necessary to enable us to experience life in its fullest and to achieve the most. Often it is through suffering that we experience the deepest love of family and friends. "The man who has never experienced any setbacks or disappointments invariably is a shallow person, while one who has suffered is usually better able to empathize with others. Some of the closest and most beautiful relationships occur between people who have suffered similar sorrows."

Some of the great works of literature, art and music were the products of suffering. "One whose life has led him to expect continued comfort and ease is not likely to make the sacrifices necessary to produce anything of great and lasting value." 

Of course, the brute fact is that there is an egregious amount of truly innocent and apparently meaningless suffering, that our instinct tells us is wrong. Is it at all worth it?

Sewell concludes:

"Why does God remain backstage, hidden from view, working behind the scenes while we act out our parts in the human drama? ....now perhaps we finally have an answer. If he were to walk out onto the stage, and take on a more direct and visible role, I suppose he could clean up our act, and rid the world of pain and evil — and doubt. But our human drama would be turned into a divine puppet show, and it would cost us some of our greatest blessings: the regularity of natural law which makes our achievements meaningful; the free will which makes us more interesting than robots; the love which we can receive from and give to others; and even the opportunity to grow and develop through suffering. I must confess that I still often wonder if the blessings are worth the terrible price, but God has chosen to create a world where both good and evil can flourish, rather than one where neither can exist. He has chosen to create a world of greatness and infamy, of love and hatred, and of joy and pain, rather than one of mindless robots or unfeeling puppets."

Overall, it all may be a vast tradeoff, and some people might conclude it isn't a good one from the human perspective.

(2017-11-06, 06:31 PM)Pssst Wrote: [ -> ]In order for karma to be interpreted as judgmental, who is going to judge you?

Karma is entirely self-imposed. You create it by your beliefs and attitudes about yourself and the world. Any karma you "feel" is a belief, and something you chose to go through as a theme in this life. All beliefs can be changed.

"What you put out is what you get back". Law Three, simple physics.

There are a couple of ways to look at this. First, there is no need to be judged by a "supreme being" of some sort, for we constantly are judging ourselves (and other people). Some say this is bad and destructive, but what if there was no judgement? Maybe judgement/forgiveness/acceptance really comes from the divine aspect of ourselves? Maybe the cycle of transgression/judgement, confession/forgiveness and acceptance/learning ties into all of life and reincarnation is just a part? My two and a half cents.

(2017-11-13, 10:47 PM)Steve from ABQ Wrote: [ -> ]There are a couple of ways to look at this. First, there is no need to be judged by a "supreme being" of some sort, for we constantly are judging ourselves (and other people). Some say this is bad and destructive, but what if there was no judgement? Maybe judgement/forgiveness/acceptance really comes from the divine aspect of ourselves? Maybe the cycle of transgression/judgement, confession/forgiveness and acceptance/learning ties into all of life and reincarnation is just a part? My two and a half cents.

If you (pl) find that path makes sense to you, then by all means.

If you take the word 'judgement' and replace it with 'observation'...

But as long as you choose to judge, you will be attaching yourself to that mode and becoming the same vibration.  “Judge not lest ye be judged,” does not mean that you are being judged from someone else outside, it means, as you tune into the vibration of invalidating another’s path, you invalidate yourself. 
 
By simply recognizing that you know what you prefer and that what you see around you is simply an observation of what others have chosen for themselves, then that allows you to know that even though you can observe it, it does not affect the vibration you chose to be, unless you chose to let it and create it for yourself.

I'll have a try but not sure I have a handle on this completely. Anyhow, here's my take on it.

Let's say there is action and there's a consequence of action. Maybe we can call that consequence karma.

Let's also say that some actions have consequences which may be constructive, helpful, loving, altruistic, etc. We might call that positive karma.

Conversely, there are actions which are destructive, selfish, hateful, intended to cause pain, etc. Negative karma.

My understanding is that any kind of karma between people creates a karmic bond - something like an entanglement in the quantum view of things. Further, in order to "heal" the damage of negative karma, the only way is to balance with positive karma. A pain inflicted is healed by a loving action. It is not healed by the perpetrator of the harmful action being punished by an equally painful negative action. Forgiveness on the part of the victim can help the victim's own healing process. Acknowledgement and remorse on the part of the perpetrator can help heal the perpetrator but, in the end, some form of positive action (I'm not sure whether this necessarily has to be directed towards the victim) seems to be required.

I don’t see why God also wouldn’t be a little bit evil. I’ve come to the conclusion that either God doesn’t exist, or is every bit as much evil and stupid as we are.

(2017-11-14, 06:39 PM)Iyace Wrote: [ -> ]I don’t see why God also wouldn’t be a little bit evil. I’ve come to the conclusion that either God doesn’t exist, or is every bit as much evil and stupid as we are.

Perhaps you are conditioned by the religious mode of thinking of God as something separate from you: as a super-patriarch existing apart from His creation and pulling all the strings.

What I think of is a universal mind with the ability to create minds within mind, each with personalities and free will. What you call good or evil is a choice of action which we make freely. There may be universal laws such as the karma I described above but really, I don't think of myself as having the necessary perspective to see the big picture. Making judgements about the behaviour of God is just as naive as believing that we will all be judged after death. From all I have read - either from channeled or NDE accounts - that does not seem to be the case.

This is a video posted in another thread by Stan Woolley. I post it here because the lady giving the talk, Natalie Sudman, includes a short description of God or, as she prefers, All That Is.

Skip forward to 13 minutes and continue for about a minute or so to catch what she says. By the way, the whole thing is probably worthwhile but I have only listened to less than half so far because I need to break off for a while to be elsewhere. [EDIT: I have now finished watching the video - excellent and fascinating talk.]

Further to the video above and in keeping with the subject of this thread, here is a commentary on Natalie's NDE with some observations on the nature of good and evil, etc.

https://thesearchforlifeafterdeath.com/2...e-in-iraq/