An excellent concise and accurate statement of the interactive dualism theory of mind

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(2024-11-20, 10:36 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: Just so I understand:

- A Designer, or group of Designers, makes two substances out of Nothing? Or out of Its/Their own infinite Body/Bodies?

- The two substances are both extended into at least 3 dimensions, so that we have a physical extended world and a spiritual world extended?

- Any seeming interaction between the substances is actually a Parallelism, where a collection of conditional checks are acted out to ensure alcohol clouds the mind's judgement and a runner's will pushes past exhaustion?

- Said conditional check even holds for PK, even though different people exert different mental effort to manifest any PK at all, with some focusing to move some RNG generators and others able to perform much greater feats like levitation?

Some facts independent of possible philosophically speculative origins of our reality: The way our world obviously works in the now is where we must start with. In this world physical causation is a fact regardless of whatever its esoteric real ultimate nature may be. We deal with our world through our experiences and actions in a de facto physical environment. In this world the mental realm (or consciousness) evidently according to all evidence while in body is manifested via the brain. We can rule out the brain actually generating consciousness through several strong paranormal evidental and philosophical arguments against it and against materialism in general. And formulations like the Hard Problem of consciousness strongly indicate that mind and consciousness and subjective awareness, etc. are absolutely not physical.

This then leaves the only other option to explain our existence here and now - in life our consciousness or spirit must somehow inhabit the brain neurological structures and interact with them so as to result in the observed close correlation between brain physical neurological phenomena and mental phenomena. This observed close correlation is the main evidence materialist neurology uses to try to prove the brain is the generator of consciousness. But as mentioned above the brain neurological structures are absolutely certainly not the origin of our consciousness. 

Many NDE OBEs exist, verified through veridicality found by investigation. They are direct experiences of the NDEr temporarily leaving the physical body as some sort of mobile center of consciousness that must be immaterial since it can float through walls and ceilings. Typically it remains hovering above its body for a time, then moves into some other higher level of spiritual existence, only to eventually return into the body of course.

Now notice that observing and analyzing a little the actual human experience and situation in the physical world strongly indicates a situation where human spirits or souls are ultimately mobile centers of consciousness inhabiting and interacting with the brain while embodied, but can under some circumstances separate from the body and brain only to eventually return and be interviewed about their experiences. 

It should be noted that the paranormal phenomenon of verified reincarnation cases also fit into this analysis as another related area of human experience indicating interactive Dualism. 

We keep getting back to the fact that very much actual human observation and experience in the de facto physical world (whatever the "physical" may ultimately be according to various philosophies) is exactly as would be expected from the interactional Dualist model.

This then leaves the competing philosophies and models of mind such as the various brands of Idealism and Monism the task of also explaining the previously outlined facts. Good luck. Why should a reality where absolutely everything is mental or spiritual including the apparent material world choose to operate in such an false but elaborate way according to and mimicing a wrong model/philosophy of mind? This would seem to have to be an elaborate charade or deliberate illusion for some high purpose dictated by the "powers that be".

If this last observation turns out to be the truth, that interactive Dualism is just a local model by which most of the world behaves and which does not rule the wider realm of existence, then interactive Dualism is still extremely important to humans because it is how so much actual human experience unfolds in this physical world we all inhabit. As a practical matter we should know how our physical world of matter and human persons really work on a basic level.

And by the way, in response to a previous post, I don't think observations of whether or not orthodox academia and science are especially hostile to Dualism and give parapsychology a bad name in those quarters have any relevance to the question of whether it is true.
(This post was last modified: Yesterday, 06:16 PM by nbtruthman. Edited 1 time in total.)
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(Yesterday, 06:15 PM)nbtruthman Wrote: Some facts independent of possible philosophically speculative origins of our reality: The way our world obviously works in the now is where we must start with. In this world physical causation is a fact regardless of whatever its esoteric real ultimate nature may be. We deal with our world through our experiences and actions in a de facto physical environment. In this world the mental realm (or consciousness) evidently according to all evidence while in body is manifested via the brain. We can rule out the brain actually generating consciousness through several strong paranormal evidental and philosophical arguments against it and against materialism in general. And formulations like the Hard Problem of consciousness strongly indicate that mind and consciousness and subjective awareness, etc. are absolutely not physical.

It seems odd to rule out Physicalism by way of philosophical argument but then leave the idea of physical causation intact, given physical causation can also be challenged by philosophy.

It is difficult to see what the "physical" is, since as you note we deal with the world through the mediation of our experience. In fact physics itself doesn't tell us about the intrinsic essence of whatever the "physical" is supposed to be:

"We don't know what a rock really is, or an atom, or an electron. We can only observe how they interact with other things and thereby describe their relational properties.

Perhaps everything has external and internal aspects. The external properties are those that science can capture and describe - through interactions, in terms of relationships. The internal aspect is the intrinsic essence, it is the reality that is not expressible in the language of interactions and relations."
 -Lee Smolin

(Yesterday, 06:15 PM)nbtruthman Wrote: This then leaves the only other option to explain our existence here and now - in life our consciousness or spirit must somehow inhabit the brain neurological structures and interact with them so as to result in the observed close correlation between brain physical neurological phenomena and mental phenomena. This observed close correlation is the main evidence materialist neurology uses to try to prove the brain is the generator of consciousness. But as mentioned above the brain neurological structures are absolutely certainly not the origin of our consciousness. 
Many NDE OBEs exist, verified through veridicality found by investigation. They are direct experiences of the NDEr temporarily leaving the physical body as some sort of mobile center of consciousness that must be immaterial since it can float through walls and ceilings. Typically it remains hovering above its body for a time, then moves into some other higher level of spiritual existence, only to eventually return into the body of course.

Well we know brains have some important relationship to mentality, I don't know if we can say spirit inhabits a brain.

I agree that there is presence that is not physical, and this is shown by varied OOBEs of which NDErs are a part. However even here we seem to sometimes have people embodied in what we might call "subtle bodies", though at other times it seems a person's consciousness is more expansive and arguably lacking embodiment.

Not sure floating through walls and ceilings makes something "immaterial". It can just be of a different kind of "matter", like the subtle matter of certain Buddhist traditions. What is immaterial in a strong sense are the qualities of the mental - Subjectivity, Reason, Aboutness of Thought.

Subtle bodies can be seen as apparitions, and said apparitions have in some cases had interaction with the "physical" world. So it seems the "physical" is not wholly distinct from the stuff apparitions are made of.

Quote:Now notice that observing and analyzing a little the actual human experience and situation in the physical world strongly indicates a situation where human spirits or souls are ultimately mobile centers of consciousness inhabiting and interacting with the brain while embodied, but can under some circumstances separate from the body and brain only to eventually return and be interviewed about their experiences. 
It should be noted that the paranormal phenomenon of verified reincarnation cases also fit into this analysis as another related area of human experience indicating interactive Dualism. 
We keep getting back to the fact that very much actual human observation and experience in the de facto physical world (whatever the "physical" may ultimately be according to various philosophies) is exactly as would be expected from the interactional Dualist model.

Sure, there's always going to be Functional Dualism between the Experiencer and Experienced.

The question is whether it makes sense for the Experienced to be classified as mental (like it is in our dreams) or something else. If it's something else then there are a few options on what the "physical" is.

Quote:This then leaves the competing philosophies and models of mind such as the various brands of Idealism and Monism the task of also explaining the previously outlined facts. Good luck. Why should a reality where absolutely everything is mental or spiritual including the apparent material world choose to operate in such an false but elaborate way according to and mimicing a wrong model/philosophy of mind? This would seem to have to be an elaborate charade or deliberate illusion for some high purpose dictated by the "powers that be".

Even if there is something that is "physical", it need not be a distinct substance. It's not that the world is illusory, it's simply the "stuff" out of which is made changes under Idealism or Neutral Monism.

The problem with this existence is not the "stuff" it was made from, but why it seems constructed to push people to believe there is no Survival and no Psi. Why are paranormal events not more prevalent? Why is it so difficult for some to manifest even the smallest Psi, whereas others are confronted by poltergeists or other bizarre events?

Quote:If this last observation turns out to be the truth, that interactive Dualism is just a local model by which most of the world behaves and which does not rule the wider realm of existence, then interactive Dualism is still extremely important to humans because it is how so much actual human experience unfolds in this physical world we all inhabit. As a practical matter we should know how our physical world of matter and human persons really work on a basic level.

Well the Experiencer should try to know something about what is being Experienced. I'm not sure Dualism as a metaphysical position is necessary. Idealist physicists still study the same stuff as Materialist physicists after all.

Quote:And by the way, in response to a previous post, I don't think observations of whether or not orthodox academia and science are especially hostile to Dualism and give parapsychology a bad name in those quarters have any relevance to the question of whether it is true.

Well we don't know if it's true, so insisting on taking it as a default when it's seen by many as a dead position unworthy of consideration is a bad move strategically.

Most people think two distinct substances cannot interact. Now I am not convinced by this, because we have great difficulty in explaining how stuff of a single substance interacts. Yet even trying to figure out what it means to have substances seems to involve interaction to some degree so hard to see how this helps Dualism much...

Of course even if Dualism is false it doesn't make Idealism or any other Monism true. But it is hard to get around the idea that *some* kind of Monism lies beneath any Functional Dualism.
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'

- Bertrand Russell


(This post was last modified: Yesterday, 09:18 PM by Sciborg_S_Patel. Edited 2 times in total.)

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