Recovery is rarely as neat as a moment of eye opening. And I very much doubt the surgeons were present at such a moment in any event.
You can doubt all you want, Malf but in this case one of the then junior surgeons, Dr Karl Greene was there when her eyes opened for the first time. And then she apparently started telling him things that she shouldn't have known. That's when he went to get his boss, Dr Spetzler.
I can speculate a dozen ways small snippets of the surgery could be consciously (or even subconsciously) subsumed to the patient’s awareness.
Let's hear it
but that would be in line with the comparative rarity of such anecdotes.
They are rare in this procedure and that's because of the extreme level of anaesthesia that is given to remove any possibility of normal conscious awakening and remembering anything. You might like to ask yourself if confabulation to fill in the blanks is the explanation, why don't many more patients or even the majority start confabulating near death experiences ? They don't do they. But anyway, Reynolds recollections were far too specific to be confabulations.
That is one of the reasons why these stories aren’t in the same class of evidence as a well documented AWARE hit, for example.
This story is in the same class (philosophically) as an Aware hit would be, but not technically. Obviously it wasn't an experiment to test for extra corporeal consciousness but it happened anyway. More importantly it happened under extreme conditions that no one in the Aware study would ever be subjected to.
As Dr Sabom said, if you wanted to design an experiment to test for the possibility of consciousness after death then this would be a perfect model.
Your incessant scepticism is very wearing, Malf. Your quite pathetic explanation for the Lloyd Rudy case ditto. Why do you bother ? You're not ever going to change your mind, are you.
(2018-07-13, 10:54 PM)tim Wrote: [ -> ]Your incessant scepticism is very wearing, Malf.
Maybe wearing, but it is the sceptic case which loses credibility from such shenanigans.
(2018-07-13, 10:54 PM)tim Wrote: [ -> ]Recovery is rarely as neat as a moment of eye opening. And I very much doubt the surgeons were present at such a moment in any event.
You can doubt all you want, Malf but in this case one of the then junior surgeons, Dr Karl Greene was there when her eyes opened for the first time. And then she apparently started telling him things that she shouldn't have known. That's when he went to get his boss, Dr Spetzler.
Ok I specifically asked for info like this a few posts back. Where’s the reference for this that Titus is unaware of?
(2018-07-14, 03:12 AM)malf Wrote: [ -> ]Ok I specifically asked for info like this a few posts back. Where’s the reference for this that Titus is unaware of?
I doubt that Titus is unaware of any of the facts about the Pam Reynolds case. The culmination of his (and Smit's) extensive investigations over many years (including conversations with Pam herself) into this case are presented in 'The Self does not die.'
Why haven't you read it if you are sincerely interested in this subject and this case in particular ? As to Karl Greene being present when she woke up... this was almost always made plain by Pam herself. There are some slight differences in the many second hand reports of this fact but it is not in question that Greene was there
“And I’m looking down and the body jumped. There were people around the gurney and the body jumped”—as they restarted her heart with a defibrillator. “And I thought, Okay, you know what, they’re electrocuting that thing, I’m not getting in it.’ Then my uncle pushed me! And I hit the body, and I heard the title track to the Eagles album Hotel California. When I hit the body the line was, ‘You can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave.’ And the body jumped again. That time I was in it and I felt it. And I opened my eyes and I saw Dr. Karl Greene, and I said, ‘You know, that is really insensitive!’ ”
Pam laughed. “He told me I needed to get some more sleep.”
Authors Judy Bachrach and Leslie Kean's reports include the reference to Karl Greene being there when Pam woke up. Have you also not read either of these books ? Where do you get your information from may I ask ?
More importantly just in case your cunning sceptical instinct, might be tempted to deduce from Pam's words that she woke just after the body jumped due to the defibrillation and therefore she must have been almost awake during the [i]defibrillation…No. Don't even think about it, Malf 
[/i]
Pam is merely recounting what she remembered happening to her. After she was defibrillated to re-start her heart she was still on cardiopulmonary by-pass, still cooled down to 27 degrees C (a temperature at which consciousness is not possible-- in actual fact she was physically dead) during the defibrillation) and still under the influence of massive amounts of barbiturates. She actually woke several hours after her heart was restarted which was apparently unusual.
(2018-07-14, 03:12 AM)malf Wrote: [ -> ]Ok I specifically asked for info like this a few posts back. Where’s the reference for this that Titus is unaware of?
As tim already said, I'm aware of such details, as they're in
The Self Does Not Die! However, I'm not aware of the precise order in which she told the individuals involved in this case, such as Dr. Spetzler (which was what your question was about, as I understood it).
The point for me is that the order of events during recovery doesn't make any difference for the evaluation of the case, because it is simply too implausible to suppose that the veridical details of her case are based on information she somehow collected during recovery.
Debunkers don't care about plausibility, solely about protecting their ludicrous, irrational physicalist world view against anomalous data. That is one of the main lessons I learned from my interactions with them.
Thankyou both for the information, such as it is. It’s hard to imagine any surgeon present throughout the recovery hours, particularly following on from such a gruelling 7+ hr surgery. I imagine he had a home to go to and sleep to catch.
The order of what happened is clearly important. After coming round it would be routine for someone to discuss the surgery with the patient.
Indeed there may well have been discussion of the procedure around her whilst she was semi conscious or half asleep.
I know Pam had a lot of family with her for the surgery and they would seem more likely, along with nurses, to be present. Surely sharing such an amazing experience with one’s loved ones would be the first priority?
Far from being at odds with any particular ‘materialist worldview’ I think the appearance and development of such anecdotes is consistent with some of what we know about human psychology; the power of incredible stories, and a desire to be at the heart of these stories. As an example of the power this episode has, for some, become sacrosanct scripture and they bristle under the lightest of probing. ;)
(2018-07-14, 08:23 PM)malf Wrote: [ -> ]Thankyou both for the information, such as it is. It’s hard to imagine any surgeon present throughout the recovery hours, particularly following on from such a gruelling 7+ hr surgery. I imagine he had a home to go to and sleep to catch.
The order of what happened is clearly important. After coming round it would be routine for someone to discuss the surgery with the patient.
Indeed there may well have been discussion of the procedure around her whilst she was semi conscious or half asleep.
I know Pam had a lot of family with her for the surgery and they would seem more likely, along with nurses, to be present. Surely sharing such an amazing experience with one’s loved ones would be the first priority?
Far from being at odds with any particular ‘materialist worldview’ I think the appearance and development of such anecdotes is consistent with some of what we know about human psychology; the power of incredible stories, and a desire to be at the heart of these stories. As an example of the power this episode has, for some, become sacrosanct scripture and they bristle under the lightest of probing. 
It may be that the "bristling" is more in reaction to the repetition of already answered debunking attempts. If you are trying to suggest that the materialist worldview has nothing to do with such debunking then you are naive (but, of course, I know that you are not). Perhaps Titus and Tim are right and you should read the book? Or maybe you are not really interested in the details at all.
For me, it beggars belief that doctors in the operating room would come out of there and give out the exact details that Pam later relates yet not remember having such conversations. That these same doctors are such limelight seekers as to create a mythos around the entire experience just to be at the heart of that story. Come on, malf - you are just being mischievous, right?
(2018-07-14, 03:12 AM)malf Wrote: [ -> ]Ok I specifically asked for info like this a few posts back. Where’s the reference for this that Titus is unaware of?
I suspect what malf was asking for was something like "Rivas et al., The Self Does Not Die, p. 312, note 2", or whatever.
I think that - on the one hand - that's a reasonable thing for sceptics to ask for - and - on the other - that's an effective answer if scepticism is unjustified. I've often been frustrated myself when I've asked someone to justify an assertion, and they've said something like "just read this book/watch this two-hour video" or even "that's well known - Google it".
(2018-07-14, 02:06 PM)tim Wrote: [ -> ]Where do you get your information from may I ask ?
Almost exclusively from this forum (and skeptiko when it covered these topics) and the wealth of expertise found here (and the relevant links from here also).
I don’t read many books these days other than P G Wodehouse
(2018-07-14, 10:40 PM)Kamarling Wrote: [ -> ]
For me, it beggars belief that doctors in the operating room would come out of there and give out the exact details that Pam later relates yet not remember having such conversations.
My point is we don’t really have any reliable record of what conversations happened and with whom. This is entirely understandable, nobody can foresee the beginning of a legend.