(2018-01-12, 04:58 PM)malf Wrote: [ -> ]Where are the ‘shenanigans’? There would appear to be some merit in referring to these stories as ‘Sick Brain Experiences’ SBEs, rather than NDEs
Well, first of all, Malf, Van Lommel's patients were NOT near death, they were clinically dead !
Shenanigans : >
>
A Portland, Oregon Emergency Room doctor named Mark Crislip, however, reviewed the original EEG readings of a number of patients claimed by scientists as being flat-lined or “dead” and discovered that they weren’t dead at all. “What they showed was slowing, attenuation, and other changes, but only a minority of patients had a flat line, and it took longer than 10 seconds. The curious thing was that even a little blood flow in some patients was enough to keep EEG’s normal.”
Which patients ? Not Van Lommel's ....so which ? Unfortunately we do need to know, to be precise... otherwise it might just be something that never actually happened the way Crislip (a materialist ? Science based Medicine origin) said it did. Surely as the "thoroughly" scientific sceptic you are, you wouldn't just expect us to take his word for it now, would you ?
> Crislip also analyzed the NDE study by Pim von Lommel and his colleagues published in the prestigious British medical journal
Lancet, in which the authors “defined clinical death as a period of unconsciousness caused by insufficient blood supply to the brain because of inadequate blood circulation, breathing, or both.
> If, in this situation, CPR is not started within 5-10 min, irreparable damage is done to the brain and the patient will die.” As Crislip notes, however, most of these cardiac patients were given CPR, which by definition delivers oxygenated blood to the brain (that’s the whole point of doing it).
I don't know how many of Van Lommel's patients were given CPR (certainly not off the top of my head). What has that got to do with anything in regard to whether or not a patient is dead ? They give CPR to patients who's hearts have stopped depending in what situation they are in, and that is the first of stage of death and if CPR and defibrillation doesn't work, it becomes permanent death ! Many of Van Lommel's patients will not have received CPR. rather they will only have been defibrillated.
Most importantly, as Crislip ought to know, but obviously doesn't (I know and I'm only a layperson) CPR doesn't generate sufficient blood into the brain when the heart has stopped, nowhere near enough to restore consciousness (Parnia says around 10-20 per cent) In fact CPR is intended only to provide
some oxygen to the brain to stop the cells being irreversibly damaged.
> “
By the definitions presented in the Lancet paper, nobody experienced clinical death,” Dr. Crislip concluded, adding that as a physician who has conducted CPR many times, “No doctor would ever declare a patient in the middle of a code 99 dead, much less brain dead. Having your heart stop for 2 to 10 minutes and being promptly resuscitated doesn’t make you ‘clinically dead’. It only means your heart isn’t beating and you may not be conscious.”
That's just semantic nonsense ! They were clinically dead, Van Lommel's study was meticulous on this point. He writes in the recent book The Science of Near Death Experiences (Missouri Medicine)
"All of these patients would have died of a cardiac arrest within five to ten minutes....We always collected a record of the ECG (heart rhythm or stoppage) during the cardiac arrest of all patients included in our study."
Crislip said >"
No doctor would ever declare a patient in the middle of a code 99 dead,"
So what's Crislip saying here ? Of course Van Lommel wouldn't have declared them dead until the process of resuscitation had been sufficiently applied. Does that mean they weren't dead? Of course not, they were in the first stage of death. If Van Lommel's patients
weren't dead then why did he bother resuscitating them for goodness sake?
Crislip said > "
Having your heart stop for 2 to 10 minutes and being promptly resuscitated doesn’t make you ‘clinically dead’. It only means your heart isn’t beating and you may not be conscious.”
So if a persons heart stops he's still alive ..is that right Malf ? So if he/she is still alive there's surely no need to bother resuscitating them. But if their heart isn't beating (cardiac arrest) they only...
may...not be conscious ... ? MAY ? A very odd statement by any stretch.
While Crislip is better qualified that me to talk about medical matters, he is not (as an infectious disease specialist) better qualified than Van Lommel and Parnia to pronounce judgement on NDE's and his comments in addition to that, demonstrate it.
In summary, it's just another inaccurate and misleading piece of propaganda from a dyed in the wool materialist (and his accomplice), to try to discredit NDE research.