Moderator note: Thread created because a conversation in the Extended Consciousness Phenomena forum was getting into waters more appropriate for this sub-forum. Ninshub.
---
There's a thing that really puzzles me and to which no materialist answer really gave me a good impression. Why do people in NDEs always, or nearly always, meet deceased persons?
If it was a normal hallucinations, I would expect people to see either living persons to whom they care conforting them, or in the case of kids fictional characters from movies, toys and games or other stuff like this. Instead, it appears that nearly always it's somebody passed away greeting them on the other side.
I doubt there is a rational answer to this, as drugs causing hallucinations do not have such effects, not even DMT is so accurate to always make you hallucinate meeting deceased individuals. And neither anoxia nor a dying brain firing random signals should produce results so consistent in many different cases and people.
(2019-05-26, 07:36 AM)Max_B Wrote: [ -> ]People also recall seeing/meeting those who are still alive. But I agree that the classic hospital NDE is more likely to feature deceased persons. The same goes for apparitions, usually deceased, but sometimes they are of the living. We don’t know why is the answer?
Personally for the classic NDE, I suspect external classical/non-classical information affecting the brain of the experient when their brain is in a particular powered down/vulnerable state. And this information is made sense of by the experient in the best way possible. I wrote a bit more about this a few years back.. http://www.skeptiko-forum.com/threads/ho...post-20603
So you think it is all brain product?
I've never heard of people meeting living person during trascendent NDEs, it happens a lot during the OBE (like, Ithink about my family and I see them at home), but never while onto the "other side".
It's also interesting that there is never something fantastical in it, no made up person. You can't meet Captain America or Kratos, they always meet relatives or friends or real people anyway, and this is weird especially in kids. Why should their brain make up an hallucination in which they meet a uncle or grandpa/grandma passed away who they barely even know or have seen just in pictures?
(2019-05-26, 09:54 AM)Max_B Wrote: [ -> ]Experients see all sorts of things, not just relatives or friends... their favorite rock star, pets, the relatives of the physician treating them, some have frightening experiences, some have frightening void-type experiences etc. A persons experience seems to have some sort of relationship between them, and the environment within which they are embedded.
In the particular case of a child seeing a grandparent, in my view, that might have something to do with say... the thoughts of the child's parents about 'loss'... that is thoughts of the parent about losing somebody very close.
Can you point out to me those cases in which people saw similar, weird experiences like meeting a celebrity? Pets I know about it, and it normally was deceased pets.
Also, while interesting, this idea that the thoughts of people around you causes what you see in th NDE doesn't seem to be accurate. First, let's think to Pam Reynolds, she saw her deceased uncle while undergoing programmed surgery. It was a hard operation, but not a critical one. It's something Spetzler and the other doctors were doing rather frequently, I doubt they were having terrible thoughts in their minds. They were even listening to music, so I suppose they were feeling good about it.
Something similar happened with Beuregard's case
https://www.resuscitationjournal.com/art...2/abstract, no meeting deceased persons but still a classical NDE with OBE verifiable and light, peace and so on.
Second, kids don't have a sense of loss. Sometimes they meet deceased relatives they don't even know that they died, sometimes they are so young like 2 or 3 years old that the concept of death is mostly foreing to them.
Another thing in your skeptico post is that it takes for granted this idea of quantum microtubules in the brain that have never been seen, observed or verified.
(2019-05-26, 09:32 AM)Raf999 Wrote: [ -> ]I've never heard of people meeting living person durig trascendent NDEs, it happens a lot during the OBE (like, Ithink about my family and I see them at home), but never while onto the "other side".
I don't think I'd say 'never'. In fact as you pointed out people do see living people during the beginning or ending stages of an NDE, just after exiting or maybe before re-entering the body.
When it comes to the 'transcendent' part of the experience, where things of this mundane world are left behind, people often meet unidentified beings, that would be very common, then beings who are identified as deceased relatives, including those who the person has never previously met. But - and this addresses your question - occasionally people see various aspects of the living, for example watching mourners at their own funeral - this is not an actual event in this world - yet, but a prospective near-future event.
During the time when a person may be considering whether to stay in that realm, or return to the body, they may see many things. One in particular comes to mind, a small living child directly addressing the person (their parent) and begging them to come back, the child needs them. This is not a physical-world visitation, the NDE experiencer is not transported to the location of the child in the physical world, rather it seems the child has entered that transcendent realm, briefly.
That's just a case which comes to mind, there may be others, I can't say I gave the matter much thought. To me there is no distinction, since I don't consider the spirits of the living or the dead to be different.
(2019-05-25, 11:28 PM)Raf999 Wrote: [ -> ]There's a thing that really puzzles me and to which no materialist answer really gave me a good impression. Why do people in NDEs always, or nearly always, meet deceased persons?
If it was a normal hallucinations, I would expect people to see either living persons to whom they care conforting them, or in the case of kids fictional characters from movies, toys and games or other stuff like this. Instead, it appears that nearly always it's somebody passed away greeting them on the other side.
I doubt there is a rational answer to this, as drugs causing hallucinations do not have such effects, not even DMT is so accurate to always make you hallucinate meeting deceased individuals. And neither anoxia nor a dying brain firing random signals should produce results so consistent in many different cases and people.
Materialist 'sceptics' focus
not on the 90% (or whatever percentage it is), that see deceased relatives but on the cases where they see the living...and they make a big deal out it (failed NDE debunker Keith Augustine revels in it)
Materialists don't like the implications (of what NDE's are suggesting), so it's entirely understandable that they would. Personally, I think it's remarkable how consistent they are.
You might be aware of the case of your famous Italian neurologist, Umberto Scapagnini ? He had a near death experience during a coma after a car accident (think he also had metastatic cancer too) and saw his great grandmother (he'd never met) He was able to confirm 'details' she gave him (apparently). He subsequently changed his mind about end of life issues (possibly assisted end of life issues ? not sure ) Interestingly, his cancer went into remission.
(2019-05-26, 09:54 AM)Max_B Wrote: [ -> ](they see) their favourite rock star
That's not really right though, is it, Max. You're referring to Moody's investigation of people claiming to see Elvis. We all know Elvis was the King ! but definitely not everyone's favourite rock star.
(2019-05-26, 12:29 PM)tim Wrote: [ -> ]Materialist 'sceptics' focus not on the 90% (or whatever percentage it is), that see deceased relatives but on the cases where they see the living...and they make a big deal out it (failed NDE debunker Keith Augustine revels in it)
Materialists don't like the implications (of what NDE's are suggesting), so it's entirely understandable that they would. Personally, I think it's remarkable how consistent they are.
You might be aware of the case of your famous Italian neurologist, Umberto Scapagnini ? He had a near death experience during a coma after a car accident (think he also had metastatic cancer too) and saw his great grandmother (he'd never met) He was able to confirm 'details' she gave him (apparently). He subsequently changed his mind about end of life issues (possibly assisted end of life issues ? not sure ) Interestingly, his cancer went into remission.
Yes i've heard of him, he was a denier of NDEs and a materialist, but then after having one himself he changed his mind and became a believer.
As far as people meeting still living persons, what do we make of it? Are those true NDEs, or are they different like lacking some core elements? If they are true NDEs it's a problem because it sounds absurd that they "go on the other side" and meet somebody alive. It makes the theory of the experience being a hallucination a lot more credible doesn't it?
(2019-05-26, 04:13 PM)Raf999 Wrote: [ -> ]As far as people meeting still living persons, what do we make of it? Are those true NDEs, or are they different like lacking some core elements? If they are true NDEs it's a problem because it sounds absurd that they "go on the other side" and meet somebody alive. It makes the theory of the experience being a hallucination a lot more credible doesn't it?
You would need to read (or listen to) the account I mentioned. I described it vaguely, unfortunately I don't have a reference available right now, don't know where to find that example. But without the actual example it seems difficult to make strong arguments, since we are commenting on just some vague idea.
On the other hand hallucinations depend upon having an active brain. This can be ruled out as a general explanation for all NDEs because (a) there is usually insufficient or no brain activity for a hallucination, and (b) the veridical observations made during the NDE show it is not a hallucination.
But ... these points are surely made rather better in the book "The Self Does Not Die".
(2019-05-26, 04:13 PM)Raf999 Wrote: [ -> ]It makes the theory of the experience being a hallucination a lot more credible doesn't it?
It would make the hallucination theory more likely
only if that element of the NDE was the major consideration...and it occurred a lot more than it does, but it isn't. And what people see in this "otherworldly dimension" is not testable. The only element that needs to be verified to demonstrate that NDE's are not hallucinations, is the out of body experience when the brain is off-line. And I think that's been achieved although not "proven" ...yet.
As to people who see the living in this other dimension, I've seen very few of those cases. How do we know that the person is not misremembering/mixing things up without realising it. Sceptics can't have it both ways. They can't make a case for people's memories being faulty in the out of body portion of the experience and then say that that can't happen in the transcendental part.
Don't we have to allow a certain percentage of human error and fraud in anything we examine ? What I find amazing is the largely very consistent elements occurring over and over again. Why should that be if NDE's are just hallucinations, remnants of the chaotic activity of a dying brain, signifying nothing ?
(2019-05-26, 05:00 PM)tim Wrote: [ -> ]It would make the hallucination theory more likely only if that element of the NDE was the major consideration...and it occurred a lot more than it does, but it isn't. And what people see in this "otherworldly dimension" is not testable. The only element that needs to be verified to demonstrate that NDE's are not hallucinations, is the out of body experience when the brain is off-line. And I think that's been achieved although not "proven" ...yet.
As to people who see the living in this other dimension, I've seen very few of those cases. How do we know that the person is not misremembering/mixing things up without realising it. Sceptics can't have it both ways. They can't make a case for people's memories being faulty in the out of body portion of the experience and then say that that can't happen in the transcendental part.
Don't we have to allow a certain percentage of human error and fraud in anything we examine ? What I find amazing is the largely very consistent elements occurring over and over again. Why should that be if NDE's are just hallucinations, remnants of the chaotic activity of a dying brain, signifying nothing ?
I don't know, the idea that people also report meeting living persons or made up/fictional characters (seems like penny sartori reported it in one of her books or so I heard), troubles me. It makes me a bit skeptical about the whole thing, re-evaluating skeptical positions.
Maybe the way NDEs are reported is a bit flawed due to the greyson scale? Although the vast majority still seems to include deceased individuals, sometimes even with the peek in darien experience.
And Sartori, even after getting accounts of people meeting non-deceased individuals, still is a believer after all.
I'm a bit confused.