Psience Quest

(2021-10-08, 02:27 AM)Kamarling Wrote: [ -> ]I have to admire your optimism, Sci, even if I don't really share it. To my mind parapsychology is at the nadir of acceptability within the academic and scientific communities. 

I think back to a time when Darwinism and mechanistic materialism were blowing away all that had gone before - around the turn of the 20th century - yet we had serious scientists and other respected voices investigating the paranormal. I think of Charles Richet and William James, of Arthur Eddington and even the creator of Sherlock Holmes, the quintessential proponent of evidence-based inquiry. While Conan Doyle took some flak over the Cottingley Fairies hoax, he was nevertheless a respected influencer. Add the names of prominent physicists such as Schrödinger, Heisenberg, Plank and Pauli and you have a formidable who's who of prominent thinkers of their time. Oh and let's not forget Jung. OK, so not all of them actually researched parapsychology but they were either open to it of subscribed to a philosophy that could accommodate it.

When you mention Sheldrake and Josephson - how often are they dismissed as fringe cranks? I think also about the pretence of academia in claiming that they do research parapsychology when I see that the University of Edinburgh Parapsychology Unit is run by Caroline Watt who, together with her partner, Richard Wiseman, are nothing more than sceptical debunkers posing as parapsychologists.

No, I'm sorry but the battle is over and the sceptics have won - at least in the upper atmosphere of the intellectuals. We here are counted among the hordes of the gullible and superstitious who question science (= materialism) and expect the Loch Ness Monster to emerge from the depths any day now.

I sympathise with everything you're saying there, Dave but I don't agree, you know. They can't ignore Parnia and his colleagues, ultimately anyway. Blackmore has already said she will change her mind if he gets the hits. Even if he doesn't have the hits because of low numbers recruited etc, he's still saying the same things he was seven years ago which means (logically) he can't have found anything to tip the scales the other way. It's just a case of endless patience.

I for one am patiently awaiting the Loch Ness Monster's emergence from the depths.

Well, I suppose the question to ask is if people have ever really stopped believing in the paranormal? Personally, I think not. Observe the enduring popularity of tabloid style publications (and their contemporary online equivalents) with their tales of sasquatch ate my dog and three in a bed Chupacabra sex romps.

Even our intellectual elite have never quite shaken the habit, sublimating their yearnings for magic and the paranormal into fantasy and science fiction (a regressive genre if there ever was one) literature. 

So, maybe what is different nowadays is people's willingness to engage with the paranormal in a slightly more active fashion - TiKTok Tarot readings, ghost hunts, spells and so on? Or perhaps it is fair to say there has been a great increase in interest, as opposed to belief, in the paranormal?

Interestingly, the period leading up to and during the French revolution saw a huge flowering of interest in divination (in fact, it's from here that the techniques of Tarot card reading emerged), secret histories and the esoteric. Similarly, in Russia, the pre-Revolutionary royal courts were obsessed with occultism.

This might tie in with George P. Hansen's (he of Trickster and the Paranormal fame) contention that times of great social dislocation are accompanied by upswings in the occurrence of and interest in paranormal phenomena.

If so, what does this say about our time? And how will we handle such an upswing of paranormal activity given the weakened state of our traditional frameworks (religions and spiritual traditions) for dealing with such phenomena?

Whatever, I have no doubt philosophical materialism is a passing fad and eagerly await Nessie's (re)emergence.

(2021-10-08, 03:02 AM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: [ -> ]Well I'm optimistic because the paranormal isn't going anywhere. People will continue to have these experiences, possibly more than ever before as medical technology gives us more NDEs and incorporating psychedelics into therapy opens more people up to Psi experiences.

Beyond that, the physicalists had the deck stacked in their favor and they still couldn't keep the issue of the Hard Problem from seeping into the cracks.

It might take a long time, perhaps the current iteration of "civilization" has to crumble, but I think we will see a re-awakening with regards to the paranormal.

'But all worthy things that are in peril as the world now stands, those are my care...I shall not wholly fail of my task, though Gondor should perish, if anything passes through this night that can still grow fair or bear fruit and flower again in days to come.'
  -Tolkien, Return of the King

Well, it seems you have some support out there, Sci. I received this in my inbox this morning from The Scientific & Medical Network about an upcoming lecture:

Quote:We are still in the intellectual forcefield of the European Enlightenment, but as the years since the Eighteenth Century go by it has become apparent that a change is approaching – a change summarised as the post-materialist paradigm. Many intellectuals are now open to something more like the Buddhist notion of enlightenment. Lance’s lecture discusses the balance that is being precariously struck between these different mindsets.

These two modes of thinking are now showing signs of influencing each other mutually.  Post-materialist thought is, and always has been, very open to Enlightenment methods and ideas, but now ‘ordinary’ Enlightenment-materialist thought is having to come to terms with anomalies and with new evidence pointed out by its own gurus – ideas that put its structures into question. One can think of quantum mechanics for example and the new developments in consciousness studies.

Given this situation where we are between two forms of enlightenment, how should we think now?

(2021-10-08, 01:07 PM)tim Wrote: [ -> ]I sympathise with everything you're saying there, Dave but I don't agree, you know. They can't ignore Parnia and his colleagues, ultimately anyway. Blackmore has already said she will change her mind if he gets the hits. Even if he doesn't have the hits because of low numbers recruited etc, he's still saying the same things he was seven years ago which means (logically) he can't have found anything to tip the scales the other way. It's just a case of endless patience.

I think the fact that there have been no hits from AWARE only strengthens the sceptical cause. Blackmore is obviously confident that there will be no hits. I agree that Parnia seems convinced despite the lack of hits. But that's the case with most of those who take the trouble to look and consider the evidence with an open mind - most are convinced. Yet the weight of materialist dogma is huge and heavy and stifles open-minded inquiry.

(2021-10-08, 07:45 PM)woethekitty Wrote: [ -> ]I for one am patiently awaiting the Loch Ness Monster's emergence from the depths.

Well, I suppose the question to ask is if people have ever really stopped believing in the paranormal? Personally, I think not. Observe the enduring popularity of tabloid style publications (and their contemporary online equivalents) with their tales of sasquatch ate my dog and three in a bed Chupacabra sex romps.

Even our intellectual elite have never quite shaken the habit, sublimating their yearnings for magic and the paranormal into fantasy and science fiction (a regressive genre if there ever was one) literature. 

So, maybe what is different nowadays is people's willingness to engage with the paranormal in a slightly more active fashion - TiKTok Tarot readings, ghost hunts, spells and so on? Or perhaps it is fair to say there has been a great increase in interest, as opposed to belief, in the paranormal?

Interestingly, the period leading up to and during the French revolution saw a huge flowering of interest in divination (in fact, it's from here that the techniques of Tarot card reading emerged), secret histories and the esoteric. Similarly, in Russia, the pre-Revolutionary royal courts were obsessed with occultism.

This might tie in with George P. Hansen's (he of Trickster and the Paranormal fame) contention that times of great social dislocation are accompanied by upswings in the occurrence of and interest in paranormal phenomena.

If so, what does this say about our time? And how will we handle such an upswing of paranormal activity given the weakened state of our traditional frameworks (religions and spiritual traditions) for dealing with such phenomena?

Whatever, I have no doubt philosophical materialism is a passing fad and eagerly await Nessie's (re)emergence.

Here's what disturbs me about some of the things you mention. TikTok Tarot readings and Ghost Hunts are precisely the kind of thing that provides ammunition to the sceptics. They will point out that interest in the paranormal is "magical thinking" or, more simply, "woo".  I get the sense that such things are considered in a similar light to the rampant conspiracy theories that so many gullible social media followers consume with ever increasing voracity. And I get the feeling that those conspiracy theorists are huddled somewhere on a forum claiming that they will eventually be proved right and the world will change.

(2021-10-08, 07:45 PM)woethekitty Wrote: [ -> ]I for one am patiently awaiting the Loch Ness Monster's emergence from the depths.

Well, I suppose the question to ask is if people have ever really stopped believing in the paranormal? Personally, I think not. Observe the enduring popularity of tabloid style publications (and their contemporary online equivalents) with their tales of sasquatch ate my dog and three in a bed Chupacabra sex romps.

Even our intellectual elite have never quite shaken the habit, sublimating their yearnings for magic and the paranormal into fantasy and science fiction (a regressive genre if there ever was one) literature. 

So, maybe what is different nowadays is people's willingness to engage with the paranormal in a slightly more active fashion - TiKTok Tarot readings, ghost hunts, spells and so on? Or perhaps it is fair to say there has been a great increase in interest, as opposed to belief, in the paranormal?

Interestingly, the period leading up to and during the French revolution saw a huge flowering of interest in divination (in fact, it's from here that the techniques of Tarot card reading emerged), secret histories and the esoteric. Similarly, in Russia, the pre-Revolutionary royal courts were obsessed with occultism.

This might tie in with George P. Hansen's (he of Trickster and the Paranormal fame) contention that times of great social dislocation are accompanied by upswings in the occurrence of and interest in paranormal phenomena.

If so, what does this say about our time? And how will we handle such an upswing of paranormal activity given the weakened state of our traditional frameworks (religions and spiritual traditions) for dealing with such phenomena?

Whatever, I have no doubt philosophical materialism is a passing fad and eagerly await Nessie's (re)emergence.

- Physicalism-materialism was not a passing fad, it was a religion that dominated not just STEM academia but a good chunk of the humanities. Even still it is losing ground now.

- Parapsychology, besides Crypto-Zoology if one insists on it being part of the field, and the Loch Ness monster are not really related save for the grouping together by "skeptics". You can just as easily group in Psi and even Survival with the Simulation Hypothesis, Super-Determinism, Mind Uploading, Sentient Programs, and MWI.

- Interest and belief go hand in hand I find. Some people do Tarot/Astrology/Witchcraft out of amusement, some people take it seriously, and some people may be amused but still end up questioning the atheist-physicalist faith.

- There are no doubt cyclical shifts of interest in the paranormal. What's also different this time is there is a philosophical shift in STEM where materialism as the default is being questioned, shifts in medicine that could lead to more paranormal experiences, plus potential mechanisms developing in the budding fields of magneto/quantum biology.

- I think the world will be better off with the increase in paranormal engagement, much better than if the Physicalist-Atheist faith dominated the world, but that's a large topic that deserves its own thread.

(2021-10-08, 08:12 PM)Kamarling Wrote: [ -> ]Here's what disturbs me about some of the things you mention. TikTok Tarot readings and Ghost Hunts are precisely the kind of thing that provides ammunition to the sceptics. They will point out that interest in the paranormal is "magical thinking" or, more simply, "woo".  I get the sense that such things are considered in a similar light to the rampant conspiracy theories that so many gullible social media followers consume with ever increasing voracity. And I get the feeling that those conspiracy theorists are huddled somewhere on a forum claiming that they will eventually be proved right and the world will change.

I think you assume today's skeptics are somehow going to hold the same esteem tomorrow.

Conspiracy theorists and academic consideration of the paranormal are very distinct. The latter's rise is related to things that academia is already in full discussion/pursuit of.

(2021-10-08, 09:31 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: [ -> ]I think you assume today's skeptics are somehow going to hold the same esteem tomorrow.

I do assume that. I don't see any reason to doubt it. The Lewontin imperative is alive and well and living in the higher echelons of academia and science.

Let me just add that, obviously, I hope that you are right and I am wrong. I hope there is a shift happening now and, if so, I hope it lasts and gains momentum. I am tired of being considered a believer in crazy stuff even by some of my closest friends and family. I have some family who are on the evangelist extreme and others who are committed atheists and both tend to see me as belonging to the other. That's the story of my life but, in fact, I'm far from either extreme.

(2021-10-08, 09:55 PM)Kamarling Wrote: [ -> ]I do assume that. I don't see any reason to doubt it. The Lewontin imperative is alive and well and living in the higher echelons of academia and science.

I think the number of STEM academics who are seriously considering Idealism/Simulation Hypothesis/Panpsychism says different.

(2021-10-08, 10:01 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: [ -> ]I think the number of STEM academics who are seriously considering Idealism/Simulation Hypothesis/Panpsychism says different.

Again, I think it is only to a point. I don't think that they are abandoning physicalism but rather trying to accommodate some anomalies into physicalism. I don't see much idealism out there but I will grant that you clearly read a lot more than I do so you should have a better feel for the trends.