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No Wonder Science Is Hopelessly Stuck
#31
(01-13-2018, 01:25 AM)Kamarling Wrote: Oh, there's one more thing I remember about my step-mother and the subject of the afterlife. Even though she was pretty intolerant of such talk, she did once open up because, as I said, my father was very interested. She told of one night during the war (WW2) when she woke to see her brother standing at the end of her bed. He was in uniform and he spoke to her. He reassured her that he was OK - that he was safe now. Then he disappeared. Within a short time (not sure whether it was the next day or some days later) the dreaded telegram arrived and confirmed he had been killed in action on the day he appeared in her bedroom.

There are so many stories like this that I have to be careful not to mix her story with those I have read about since but I'm pretty sure of the basic facts as described above. Perhaps it wasn't a telegram - maybe it was a visit from the Army? I can't be sure of that but I do remember her telling that story and I remember being shocked that she would share such a thing after being so dismissive of all that "spiritualist stuff". She told us that her brother's name was John and showed us a photograph of him in uniform.

Dave, that experience was commonplace, the very same thing happened to the next door neighbour (think it was next door)
of my grandma. Her son (my uncle believe it or not ...my father was born in 1920 and named after this son who was killed on the Somme by a shell...a german officer mercifully shot him to put him out of his misery apparently) appeared at the foot of the neighbour's bed and asked her to tell my grandma that he'd been killed and wouldn't be coming back. My uncle was at the foot of that bed.

The telegram arrived about a week after I think. There was nothing strange about it at all, it happened all the time (as you will know). How did we get to this point where such events are denied or put down as hallucinations ? I'm fed up with relentless scepticism. They deny an important element of what it is to be human.
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#32
(01-13-2018, 01:25 AM)Kamarling Wrote: Oh, there's one more thing I remember about my step-mother and the subject of the afterlife. Even though she was pretty intolerant of such talk, she did once open up because, as I said, my father was very interested. She told of one night during the war (WW2) when she woke to see her brother standing at the end of her bed. He was in uniform and he spoke to her. He reassured her that he was OK - that he was safe now. Then he disappeared. Within a short time (not sure whether it was the next day or some days later) the dreaded telegram arrived and confirmed he had been killed in action on the day he appeared in her bedroom.

There are so many stories like this that I have to be careful not to mix her story with those I have read about since but I'm pretty sure of the basic facts as described above. Perhaps it wasn't a telegram - maybe it was a visit from the Army? I can't be sure of that but I do remember her telling that story and I remember being shocked that she would share such a thing after being so dismissive of all that "spiritualist stuff". She told us that her brother's name was John and showed us a photograph of him in uniform.

I've had extremely powerful experiences over the years in which my mother and father (separately) have come to me in the middle of the night to tell me they were dead (we live 3,000 miles apart), only to find out the next day that they were alive and well. I wonder how to incorporate these kinds of experiences as well into our understanding of the afterlife...
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#33
(01-13-2018, 04:24 PM)berkelon Wrote: I've had extremely powerful experiences over the years in which my mother and father (separately) have come to me in the middle of the night to tell me they were dead (we live 3,000 miles apart), only to find out the next day that they were alive and well. I wonder how to incorporate these kinds of experiences as well into our understanding of the afterlife...

I'm aware of something like this happening and it is often referred to as ghosts of the living. I'm a little surprised they would appear to you to tell you that they are dead, however. In my step-mother's experience, her actually dead brother didn't say he was dead, he said he was safe and well (or fine or OK or words to that effect). I believe that to be the usual message.

The reason I make the distinction is to suggest that, to the self in that state, being "dead" means nothing to them. They are happy to tell us that they are indeed alive and well. Moreover, the message I see form these experiences along with NDEs is that there is no death. There are also accounts from accomplished OBE practitioners of meetings with those "on the other side". So it is we, embedded in our physical illusion, who insist on referring to those who have passed on as being dead.
"I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud.” ― C.G. Jung
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#34
(01-13-2018, 06:47 PM)Kamarling Wrote: I'm aware of something like this happening and it is often referred to as ghosts of the living. I'm a little surprised they would appear to you to tell you that they are dead, however. In my step-mother's experience, her actually dead brother didn't say he was dead, he said he was safe and well (or fine or OK or words to that effect). I believe that to be the usual message.

The reason I make the distinction is to suggest that, to the self in that state, being "dead" means nothing to them. They are happy to tell us that they are indeed alive and well. Moreover, the message I see form these experiences along with NDEs is that there is no death. There are also accounts from accomplished OBE practitioners of meetings with those "on the other side". So it is we, embedded in our physical illusion, who insist on referring to those who have passed on as being dead.

Well, they didn't come right out and say, "I'm dead." It was more that we had a conversation in which I was being made fully aware of the fact that they were gone, and that the fact of their death was being communicated, so the experience for me was one of knowing that they were dead, without any question. Then, the next morning feeling fairly certain they were dead when I awoke and then finding out they weren't. And these experiences did differ from the more straightforward dream experiences in which you simply dream that a family member is dead and then wake up to find out they aren't.
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#35
(01-14-2018, 12:49 AM)berkelon Wrote: Well, they didn't come right out and say, "I'm dead." It was more that we had a conversation in which I was being made fully aware of the fact that they were gone, and that the fact of their death was being communicated, so the experience for me was one of knowing that they were dead, without any question. Then, the next morning feeling fairly certain they were dead when I awoke and then finding out they weren't. And these experiences did differ from the more straightforward dream experiences in which you simply dream that a family member is dead and then wake up to find out they aren't.

I really don't know why they should want you to believe they were gone. My best guess is that they might have been trying to convey to you the fact that, in this life or the next, they are never far from you - no matter the physical distance or circumstances.

One other thing I would say is that these experiences are often a mixture of the objective and the subjective. When something is objectively confusing or unclear, it is often worth looking for a subjective meaning or a metaphor being presented to your mind. It might not make sense on the surface but somewhere deeper a part of your subconscious will get the message.

Just my thoughts: I'm just surmising.
"I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud.” ― C.G. Jung
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#36
(01-14-2018, 01:08 AM)Kamarling Wrote: I really don't know why they should want you to believe they were gone. My best guess is that they might have been trying to convey to you the fact that, in this life or the next, they are never far from you - no matter the physical distance or circumstances.

One other thing I would say is that these experiences are often a mixture of the objective and the subjective. When something is objectively confusing or unclear, it is often worth looking for a subjective meaning or a metaphor being presented to your mind. It might not make sense on the surface but somewhere deeper a part of your subconscious will get the message.

Just my thoughts: I'm just surmising.

I've always leaned towards the explanation that they were some kind of dream experiences that were significantly more vivid than usual, and thus felt much different and more "real", but were still ultimately dreams. I don't have any way of knowing the limits of vividness and "realness" that can exist in the dreamspace, so it would be difficult for me to simply state that it could not have been a dream. Ahhh, life...and death...and afterlife...and dreams.
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