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Is it the brain that produces dreams?
#1
[Post deleted at Brian's request]

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#2
(09-22-2017, 09:58 AM)Brian Wrote: It is usually presumed that it is the brain that produces dreams but perhaps that isn't the case?  I started this thread so as not to continue hijacking Chuck's thread on dream structure.

You might want to change the title of the thread to avoid confusion, as I'm guessing we are going to be talking about mind vs brain and not necessarily mind/brain/dream... Just a thought.

Anyway there are lots of sources of evidence to support the theory that the brain plays a more secondary role than we have always imagined.

I need to assemble some links to this stuff so pardon me if I don't get into all the details right at this moment. This is why I was delaying a bit before creating the thread. But since Brian did that let, me mention a few things for now...

1- There are many examples in medical situations where patients shouldn't have much if any brain function, but they report deep experiences. These are usually associated with NDE or OBEs. And it's not just the ability to see or hear, its the cognitive and experiential quality of the experience I'm talking about. A vastly diminished brain should not be capable of higher thought, never mind "hyper real" levels of experience.

Typical skeptical responses are that the person had the experiences at a different time than reported (this has been refuted in many cases by external time references), or that the brain was actually not that diminished (this is usually done with a wave of the hand with little evidence to support).

2- There are tests that have asked a person to make a decision and it has been shown that the decision must have been made before the signal was present in the brain.

3- It has been shown that the speed of signal transition through nerves is not electrical, but chemical, and that the speed is actually quite slow. So slow in fact that that it seems the muscle must begin motion BEFORE the signal has reached it. Thereby indicting some un anticipated, possibly non-physical connection and possibly that the brain is NOT initiating this movement in the first place.

4- The medically supported and reported "missing brain" problem. Cases have been reported numerous times. Sometimes there is profound deficit in these cases and in other little or no deficit.

5- The Two ball optical illusion. Will need to explain and provide link to picture, to show you how this works.
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#3
(09-22-2017, 10:52 AM)Brian Wrote: I changed the title a little but I want to discuss dream evidence specifically here.  There is however scope for some deviation into mind/brain generally as it will be important to the discussion.


OK, no prob.
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#4
(09-22-2017, 10:19 AM)jkmac Wrote: You might want to change the title of the thread to avoid confusion, as I'm guessing we are going to be talking about mind vs brain and not necessarily mind/brain/dream... Just a thought.

Anyway there are lots of sources of evidence to support the theory that the brain plays a more secondary role than we have always imagined.

I need to assemble some links to this stuff so pardon me if I don't get into all the details right at this moment. This is why I was delaying a bit before creating the thread. But since Brian did that let, me mention a few things for now...

1- There are many examples in medical situations where patients shouldn't have much if any brain function, but they report deep experiences. These are usually associated with NDE or OBEs. And it's not just the ability to see or hear, its the cognitive and experiential quality of the experience I'm talking about. A vastly diminished brain should not be capable of higher thought, never mind "hyper real" levels of experience.

Typical skeptical responses are that the person had the experiences at a different time than reported (this has been refuted in many cases by external time references), or that the brain was actually not that diminished (this is usually done with a wave of the hand with little evidence to support).

2- There are tests that have asked a person to make a decision and it has been shown that the decision must have been made before the signal was present in the brain.

3- It has been shown that the speed of signal transition through nerves is not electrical, but chemical, and that the speed is actually quite slow. So slow in fact that that it seems the muscle must begin motion BEFORE the signal has reached it. Thereby indicting some un anticipated, possibly non-physical connection and possibly that the brain is NOT initiating this movement in the first place.

4- The medically supported and reported "missing brain" problem. Cases have been reported numerous times. Sometimes there is profound deficit in these cases and in other little or no deficit.

5- The Two ball optical illusion. Will need to explain and provide link to picture, to show you how this works.
So here's some more info-

1- See Pam Reynolds and Eben Alexander examples. They are both solid gold examples of brains with no detectable activity but where the patients have complete and even extraordinary experiences.
Reynolds

2+3- 

Many tests where subjects predicted randomly generated events before sense info reached the brain. 
Radin 1997 118-124, Bierman and Radin 1997, Honorton and Ferrari 1989

Dr Benjemin Libit Univ CA, tests where subject was consciously aware of physical stimulation a few thousandths of a second before brain registered response.

4- missing brain 

Here's another category-
5- How about language or music savants? Where do the skills come from? We can assume "outside the brain" since the subject has never learned the skill. Do I really need to direct people to these dozens of examples? 

That's all I can do in the moment. Gotta run and work on my honey-do list...
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#5
(09-22-2017, 09:58 AM)Brian Wrote: It is usually presumed that it is the brain that produces dreams but perhaps that isn't the case?  I started this thread so as not to continue hijacking Chuck's thread on dream structure.

Obviously what I am saying here is that I believe the brain is essentially a mind-body interface.
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#6
(09-22-2017, 09:58 AM)Brian Wrote: It is usually presumed that it is the brain that produces dreams but perhaps that isn't the case?  I started this thread so as not to continue hijacking Chuck's thread on dream structure.

Well my brain definately seems to have something vital to do with dreaming. The question for me is really to do with whether it's really isolated in the way most neuroscientists assume it to be. From my research, the idea of that type of isolation is wrong.
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#7
(09-22-2017, 11:59 AM)Max_B Wrote: Well my brain definately seems to have something vital to do with dreaming. The question for me is really to do with whether it's really isolated in the way most neuroscientists assume it to be. From my research, the idea of that type of isolation is wrong.


What specifically leads you to be so sure that your brain has something so vital to do with your dreams?
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#8
(09-22-2017, 12:28 PM)Brian Wrote: This is my position too although I can't qualify it - it just seems right, at least until further notice  Big Grin

If your brain is so important for dreaming, how would you explain the fact that people like Pam Reynolds and Eben Alexander (and hundreds of thousands of other NDE experiences) had their experiences w/o the benefit of a functioning brain?
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#9
(09-22-2017, 12:13 PM)jkmac Wrote: What specifically leads you to be so sure that your brain has something so vital to do with your dreams?

It doesn't seem to be possible for me to manipulate this apparently shared reality without my brain (here I mean repeating protein structures), not that I've tried it. But if you remove a persons brain they seem to stop being able to affect my shared reality. If I interrupt a nerve between a sense organ and my brain, I seem to lose access to that sensory experience. My waking experiences also seem related to dreams... the congenitally blind seem to have dreams based on their experiences... lots of eating, touch and hearing (not visual)... congenitally deaf the same... etc. R.E.M. Eye movement studies seem to show eye movements can be specifically correlate with dream experiences. External sensory data present at the time of I'm dreaming can get incorporated into my dream. Physical waking experiences that require a body, like stacking shelves at a supermarket, when these experiences are new and repetitive they often get incorporated into that evenings dreams. Concerns in my waking life seem to get incorporated into my dreams. Some reasons there...
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#10
(09-22-2017, 12:55 PM)Max_B Wrote: It doesn't seem to be possible for me to manipulate this apparently shared reality without my brain (here I mean repeating protein structures), not that I've tried it. But if you remove a persons brain they seem to stop being able to affect my shared reality. If I interrupt a nerve between a sense organ and my brain, I seem to lose access to that sensory experience. My waking experiences also seem related to dreams... the congenitally blind seem to have dreams based on their experiences... lots of eating, touch and hearing (not visual)... congenitally deaf the same... etc. R.E.M. Eye movement studies seem to show eye movements can be specifically correlate with dream experiences. External sensory data present at the time of I'm dreaming can get incorporated into my dream. Physical waking experiences that require a body, like stacking shelves at a supermarket, when these experiences are new and repetitive they often get incorporated into that evenings dreams. Concerns in my waking life seem to get incorporated into my dreams. Some reasons there...
Lots of error here logical and factual:

Your assertion in bold italics followed by my response.

It doesn't seem to be possible for me to manipulate this apparently shared reality without my brain (here I mean repeating protein structures), not that I've tried it.
Since it is impossible to have a living breathing body without a brain of some sort, your statement, in a way is moot. You can't do ANYTHING without having a connected brain. Whether that has anything to do with body movement can be argued convincingly in some situations, whether you can have cognition without  a brain is the question here, and which you aren't touching on with this statement.

But if you remove a persons brain they seem to stop being able to affect my shared reality. 
This is just a silly comment. Yes, if you cut off  a person's head, they will have a hard time doing anything, least of all "affecting your reality". More to the point- you are saying that a person's ability to affect objective reality is directly tied to their connection to the brain? That assertion carries no basis in fact. None whatsoever.  

edit- remove unnecessary comment.

If I interrupt a nerve between a sense organ and my brain, I seem to lose access to that sensory experience.
It may surprise you to find that this is not the case. Besides the many thousands of cases of NDEs where people DO have sensations but have non-functioning brains, there are cases where totally blind people have the sensation of sight.

First of all- the stargate program proved that remote viewing is real. That is vision without using ht eyes. This was also validated by PEAR in 1978. Also shown by Russell Targ (Author of Fundamentals of Quantum Electronics).

There are many other examples- see this link for more... Senses w/o brain

My waking experiences also seem related to dreams... the congenitally blind seem to have dreams based on their experiences... lots of eating, touch and hearing (not visual)... congenitally deaf the same... etc

Just because dreams have a strong relationship to memory doesn't mean they are driven by brain. You are totally confusing cause and effect here. Also there is no reason to believe that the memories which often show up in dreams, reside in the brain. I have already shown evidence that they are not. There is a ton more evidence I can provide. Bottom line is: science has yet to demonstrate a physical location in the brain for any memory.

R.E.M. Eye movement studies seem to show eye movements can be specifically correlate with dream experiences. External sensory data present at the time of I'm dreaming can get incorporated into my dream.

Yes this is true. This is how Robert Waggoner and others proved the existence of Lucid Dreaming several decades ago. But again you are confusing cause and effect here. Yes there is an experience going on during a dream. And it is possible to, from within a dream, to glance back and forth with your dream eyes for example, which causes your physical eyes to do the same. There however is no obious or proven connection between this ability, and whether the brain is creating the dream. None. . How do you possibly make this connection? Please provide some evidence.

External sensory data present at the time of I'm dreaming can get incorporated into my dream
True that. But that does not mean the sense data is being incorporated BY THE BRAIN into the dream. It is true to say that it is incorporated by whatever is responsible for the dream, and your big assumption that it is the brain, is just that,, a big assumption.

Physical waking experiences that require a body, like stacking shelves at a supermarket, when these experiences are new and repetitive they often get incorporated into that evenings dreams. Concerns in my waking life seem to get incorporated into my dreams. Some reasons there...
Yes, as we've already said, memories are able to be incorporated into dreams. That IS NOT the same thing as saying the brain does this. 

There you have it: a whole list of incorrect or even non sequitur statements that fail to prove brain is seat of dreams. That is unless, you can provide some better supporting evidence. What you have provided is utterly inadequate.
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